Tekel Towers » Dundee United vs Dundee

RogerTheAlien · 05/1/2026 3:45 pm

Finn Seemann wrote:
Conway11 wrote:
Finn Seemann wrote:
See ya!

Still backing him??

Both goodwins out

Do it Luigi and save our season.
If not sacking is backing then yes I am. Luigi wants Barry Ferguson apparently - that happens then I'm out.

I know Goodwin’s not happy with his budget (apparently only Livi, Falkirk, St Mirren and Killie have smaller budgets than us).

We finished 4th last year and advanced a stage in Europe with two sell out tannadice’s along with sell out derbies, Aberdeen and old firm games. I’d be pissed too if we had all that and was asked to do the same again while cutting my budget.

Last edited by RogerTheAlien (05/1/2026 3:50 pm)

Conway11 · 05/1/2026 9:41 pm

RogerTheAlien wrote:
Finn Seemann wrote:
Conway11 wrote:

Still backing him??

Both goodwins out

Do it Luigi and save our season.
If not sacking is backing then yes I am. Luigi wants Barry Ferguson apparently - that happens then I'm out.

I know Goodwin’s not happy with his budget (apparently only Livi, Falkirk, St Mirren and Killie have smaller budgets than us).

We finished 4th last year and advanced a stage in Europe with two sell out tannadice’s along with sell out derbies, Aberdeen and old firm games. I’d be pissed too if we had all that and was asked to do the same again while cutting my budget.

Absolutely and we lost Peter Houston because of stuff like that.

Watching that saturday compared to the filths XI it was like chalk and cheese.

The filth were up for it, going for every ball, celebrating throw ins and corners.

Our boys look like they couldn't be arsed whatsoever.

These boys have proven they can cut it in this league against good sides. Compare us to July past.

Confidence, willingness to get stuck in, expressive and attacking play, passion and creativity is all gone.

So it begs the question, has the manager lost them? Because I saw Dundee players fighting for their manager and I didn't get that with us.

Shakey Isles Arab · 05/1/2026 11:01 pm

Ramble alert:

Goodwin out is ridiculous and way premature at this stage.

That said my problems stemming from being bullied off the park twice in a row by the Dees include the following:
1/ Recruitment: Normally you'll sign 10, get say 4 diamonds 4 Ok and 2 duds
2/ Signings this Summer we've had - Diamonds - Sapsford, Pan, retaining Luca, Fatah Ok's - -Naamo (could yet turn out an invaluable spuad player, Iovu, Kereztes. Duds - Bert, Dolcek, Eskesen Total Liability Kuch
To compound the signing of the Duds Jim has resolutely, stubbornly and at the cost of points stuck with the duds when he has better sitting on the bench.
- Too many duds.

Now I saw where Jim was coming from back in the sunny days at the start of the season, cruising past the Fun and the Sheep. A side focussed on attack. Then 10 draws - hasnae worked out Jim - and what are you doing - sticking with the duds.

- The even bigger picture: Any of you remember the great Dens Park massacre of '65 (Billy ? ) Dees had been to Semis of European Cup, thought they were shit hot, there was only 1 team in Dundee. Enter Scandinavians, bang Dees 0 v 5 Us . We've basically despite odd hiccough been top team ever since.

Until now.

We took the field presuming we'd won the game for the turning up, we were lethargic, not up for it, couldn't string passes together and what was worst Jim seems set on this rotation/impact player complete and utter shite. Get the best players on from the get go.
- So what I'm saying is as a club, as management, as players, as supporters we have to get over ourselves and realize we have to go out and beat them by virtue of being the better team on the park no just in our dreams off the park.
Otherwise we'll end up like them still thinking we're the big team when it's patently obvious we have to earn it.

1983 was 42 years ago. JYM glory days are gone, if we want to aspire to them we have to give ourselves a boot up the arse

As to the game Richards, tireless Sapsford excellent. The rest dunno, disjointed, injury hit (no that that's any excuse), they were getting to every second ball. Despite us dominating 2nd half we could have huffed and puffed and never scored.

And again I'm bewildered as to why you don't have your best team on at the start - I'm thinking Trapanovski, SCH Barista ( if fit) and why would you bring on Dolcek and Fatah off.
To answer my own question - Jim, you're no getting the selections right and you're no getting the best out of the class ammunition you've got.

Last edited by Shakey Isles Arab (05/1/2026 11:08 pm)

Finn Seemann · 06/1/2026 10:13 am

Shakey Isles Arab wrote:
Ramble alert:

Goodwin out is ridiculous and way premature at this stage.

That said my problems stemming from being bullied off the park twice in a row by the Dees include the following:
1/ Recruitment: Normally you'll sign 10, get say 4 diamonds 4 Ok and 2 duds
2/ Signings this Summer we've had - Diamonds - Sapsford, Pan, retaining Luca, Fatah Ok's - -Naamo (could yet turn out an invaluable spuad player, Iovu, Kereztes. Duds - Bert, Dolcek, Eskesen Total Liability Kuch
To compound the signing of the Duds Jim has resolutely, stubbornly and at the cost of points stuck with the duds when he has better sitting on the bench.
- Too many duds.

Now I saw where Jim was coming from back in the sunny days at the start of the season, cruising past the Fun and the Sheep. A side focussed on attack. Then 10 draws - hasnae worked out Jim - and what are you doing - sticking with the duds.

- The even bigger picture: Any of you remember the great Dens Park massacre of '65 (Billy ? ) Dees had been to Semis of European Cup, thought they were shit hot, there was only 1 team in Dundee. Enter Scandinavians, bang Dees 0 v 5 Us . We've basically despite odd hiccough been top team ever since.

Until now.

We took the field presuming we'd won the game for the turning up, we were lethargic, not up for it, couldn't string passes together and what was worst Jim seems set on this rotation/impact player complete and utter shite. Get the best players on from the get go.
- So what I'm saying is as a club, as management, as players, as supporters we have to get over ourselves and realize we have to go out and beat them by virtue of being the better team on the park no just in our dreams off the park.
Otherwise we'll end up like them still thinking we're the big team when it's patently obvious we have to earn it.

1983 was 42 years ago. JYM glory days are gone, if we want to aspire to them we have to give ourselves a boot up the arse

As to the game Richards, tireless Sapsford excellent. The rest dunno, disjointed, injury hit (no that that's any excuse), they were getting to every second ball. Despite us dominating 2nd half we could have huffed and puffed and never scored.

And again I'm bewildered as to why you don't have your best team on at the start - I'm thinking Trapanovski, SCH Barista ( if fit) and why would you bring on Dolcek and Fatah off.
To answer my own question - Jim, you're no getting the selections right and you're no getting the best out of the class ammunition you've got.

I think your 442 Diamond/OK/Dud proportions are way too positive. I'd say it is more likely to be 2 diamonds, 4 OK and 4 Duds. On that basis he's actually doing fine on recruitment. I'd also say that Kuch (whilst having many redeeming features) was the only dud. Eskesen hasn't really been given a chance/doesn't fit our structure (which is Jim's fault - probably a bit of a panic buy when Pappoe was injured). Bert is limited, but he's been more OK than dud for me - cruised it at Livi for example. There is a player in Dolcek - nobody can argue with that, but Jim seems to have lost him (that's on Jim).

For me he's realised Bert's limitations and has only played him as Graham isn't fully fit. Worked at Livi. Didn't against the Dees - yes that's on Jim. Doubt he'll play Bert on Saturday.

I'd agree we were second best in terms of competing on Saturday, but I'd actually say the effort and team spirit is normally a hallmark of this team. Certainly away from home they put in 100%. I do think there is a George Fox factor at play though. We do seem less robust at home.

Also, bar the hindsight of Bert starting (presumably Graham was risked in the second half) I think he got his team selection right. He brought Graham on at half time - having got the initial CCH wrong I don't think there was a need to bring on Graham before half time. I'd have got Sevelj on then too and hooked Iovu and gone 4 at the back sooner as Camara was in falling about mode rather than controlling the game mode and needed the extra body in midfield. I'd probably have kept Fatah on longer too, but he wasn't really looking like doing anything so I had no real issue with Dolcek being chucked in there.

To be fair to the Dees, they defended well, pretty much controlled things in midfield and looked a decent threat going forward. That said, they scored their only goal from a Camara/Bert howler and Stephenson probably scores his chance 8 times out of 10. Fine margins, but doesn't mean losing to them doesn't hurt.

Arabdownsouth · 06/1/2026 11:12 am

Finn Seemann wrote:
Shakey Isles Arab wrote:
Ramble alert:

Goodwin out is ridiculous and way premature at this stage.

That said my problems stemming from being bullied off the park twice in a row by the Dees include the following:
1/ Recruitment: Normally you'll sign 10, get say 4 diamonds 4 Ok and 2 duds
2/ Signings this Summer we've had - Diamonds - Sapsford, Pan, retaining Luca, Fatah Ok's - -Naamo (could yet turn out an invaluable spuad player, Iovu, Kereztes. Duds - Bert, Dolcek, Eskesen Total Liability Kuch
To compound the signing of the Duds Jim has resolutely, stubbornly and at the cost of points stuck with the duds when he has better sitting on the bench.
- Too many duds.

Now I saw where Jim was coming from back in the sunny days at the start of the season, cruising past the Fun and the Sheep. A side focussed on attack. Then 10 draws - hasnae worked out Jim - and what are you doing - sticking with the duds.

- The even bigger picture: Any of you remember the great Dens Park massacre of '65 (Billy ? ) Dees had been to Semis of European Cup, thought they were shit hot, there was only 1 team in Dundee. Enter Scandinavians, bang Dees 0 v 5 Us . We've basically despite odd hiccough been top team ever since.

Until now.

We took the field presuming we'd won the game for the turning up, we were lethargic, not up for it, couldn't string passes together and what was worst Jim seems set on this rotation/impact player complete and utter shite. Get the best players on from the get go.
- So what I'm saying is as a club, as management, as players, as supporters we have to get over ourselves and realize we have to go out and beat them by virtue of being the better team on the park no just in our dreams off the park.
Otherwise we'll end up like them still thinking we're the big team when it's patently obvious we have to earn it.

1983 was 42 years ago. JYM glory days are gone, if we want to aspire to them we have to give ourselves a boot up the arse

As to the game Richards, tireless Sapsford excellent. The rest dunno, disjointed, injury hit (no that that's any excuse), they were getting to every second ball. Despite us dominating 2nd half we could have huffed and puffed and never scored.

And again I'm bewildered as to why you don't have your best team on at the start - I'm thinking Trapanovski, SCH Barista ( if fit) and why would you bring on Dolcek and Fatah off.
To answer my own question - Jim, you're no getting the selections right and you're no getting the best out of the class ammunition you've got.

I think your 442 Diamond/OK/Dud proportions are way too positive. I'd say it is more likely to be 2 diamonds, 4 OK and 4 Duds. On that basis he's actually doing fine on recruitment. I'd also say that Kuch (whilst having many redeeming features) was the only dud. Eskesen hasn't really been given a chance/doesn't fit our structure (which is Jim's fault - probably a bit of a panic buy when Pappoe was injured). Bert is limited, but he's been more OK than dud for me - cruised it at Livi for example. There is a player in Dolcek - nobody can argue with that, but Jim seems to have lost him (that's on Jim).

For me he's realised Bert's limitations and has only played him as Graham isn't fully fit. Worked at Livi. Didn't against the Dees - yes that's on Jim. Doubt he'll play Bert on Saturday.

I'd agree we were second best in terms of competing on Saturday, but I'd actually say the effort and team spirit is normally a hallmark of this team. Certainly away from home they put in 100%. I do think there is a George Fox factor at play though. We do seem less robust at home.

Also, bar the hindsight of Bert starting (presumably Graham was risked in the second half) I think he got his team selection right. He brought Graham on at half time - having got the initial CCH wrong I don't think there was a need to bring on Graham before half time. I'd have got Sevelj on then too and hooked Iovu and gone 4 at the back sooner as Camara was in falling about mode rather than controlling the game mode and needed the extra body in midfield. I'd probably have kept Fatah on longer too, but he wasn't really looking like doing anything so I had no real issue with Dolcek being chucked in there.

To be fair to the Dees, they defended well, pretty much controlled things in midfield and looked a decent threat going forward. That said, they scored their only goal from a Camara/Bert howler and Stephenson probably scores his chance 8 times out of 10. Fine margins, but doesn't mean losing to them doesn't hurt.

Can't disagree with much of this really. What i will say is,it's taken Jim far too long to realise Esselink is a dud and it's cost us . He also persisted far too long with Kucherenko which also cost us several points. I dont think we will,but if we do go down because of it then it's entirely on Jim Goodwin.

Finn Seemann · 06/1/2026 11:50 am

Arabdownsouth wrote:
Finn Seemann wrote:
Shakey Isles Arab wrote:
Ramble alert:

Goodwin out is ridiculous and way premature at this stage.

That said my problems stemming from being bullied off the park twice in a row by the Dees include the following:
1/ Recruitment: Normally you'll sign 10, get say 4 diamonds 4 Ok and 2 duds
2/ Signings this Summer we've had - Diamonds - Sapsford, Pan, retaining Luca, Fatah Ok's - -Naamo (could yet turn out an invaluable spuad player, Iovu, Kereztes. Duds - Bert, Dolcek, Eskesen Total Liability Kuch
To compound the signing of the Duds Jim has resolutely, stubbornly and at the cost of points stuck with the duds when he has better sitting on the bench.
- Too many duds.

Now I saw where Jim was coming from back in the sunny days at the start of the season, cruising past the Fun and the Sheep. A side focussed on attack. Then 10 draws - hasnae worked out Jim - and what are you doing - sticking with the duds.

- The even bigger picture: Any of you remember the great Dens Park massacre of '65 (Billy ? ) Dees had been to Semis of European Cup, thought they were shit hot, there was only 1 team in Dundee. Enter Scandinavians, bang Dees 0 v 5 Us . We've basically despite odd hiccough been top team ever since.

Until now.

We took the field presuming we'd won the game for the turning up, we were lethargic, not up for it, couldn't string passes together and what was worst Jim seems set on this rotation/impact player complete and utter shite. Get the best players on from the get go.
- So what I'm saying is as a club, as management, as players, as supporters we have to get over ourselves and realize we have to go out and beat them by virtue of being the better team on the park no just in our dreams off the park.
Otherwise we'll end up like them still thinking we're the big team when it's patently obvious we have to earn it.

1983 was 42 years ago. JYM glory days are gone, if we want to aspire to them we have to give ourselves a boot up the arse

As to the game Richards, tireless Sapsford excellent. The rest dunno, disjointed, injury hit (no that that's any excuse), they were getting to every second ball. Despite us dominating 2nd half we could have huffed and puffed and never scored.

And again I'm bewildered as to why you don't have your best team on at the start - I'm thinking Trapanovski, SCH Barista ( if fit) and why would you bring on Dolcek and Fatah off.
To answer my own question - Jim, you're no getting the selections right and you're no getting the best out of the class ammunition you've got.

I think your 442 Diamond/OK/Dud proportions are way too positive. I'd say it is more likely to be 2 diamonds, 4 OK and 4 Duds. On that basis he's actually doing fine on recruitment. I'd also say that Kuch (whilst having many redeeming features) was the only dud. Eskesen hasn't really been given a chance/doesn't fit our structure (which is Jim's fault - probably a bit of a panic buy when Pappoe was injured). Bert is limited, but he's been more OK than dud for me - cruised it at Livi for example. There is a player in Dolcek - nobody can argue with that, but Jim seems to have lost him (that's on Jim).

For me he's realised Bert's limitations and has only played him as Graham isn't fully fit. Worked at Livi. Didn't against the Dees - yes that's on Jim. Doubt he'll play Bert on Saturday.

I'd agree we were second best in terms of competing on Saturday, but I'd actually say the effort and team spirit is normally a hallmark of this team. Certainly away from home they put in 100%. I do think there is a George Fox factor at play though. We do seem less robust at home.

Also, bar the hindsight of Bert starting (presumably Graham was risked in the second half) I think he got his team selection right. He brought Graham on at half time - having got the initial CCH wrong I don't think there was a need to bring on Graham before half time. I'd have got Sevelj on then too and hooked Iovu and gone 4 at the back sooner as Camara was in falling about mode rather than controlling the game mode and needed the extra body in midfield. I'd probably have kept Fatah on longer too, but he wasn't really looking like doing anything so I had no real issue with Dolcek being chucked in there.

To be fair to the Dees, they defended well, pretty much controlled things in midfield and looked a decent threat going forward. That said, they scored their only goal from a Camara/Bert howler and Stephenson probably scores his chance 8 times out of 10. Fine margins, but doesn't mean losing to them doesn't hurt.

Can't disagree with much of this really. What i will say is,it's taken Jim far too long to realise Esselink is a dud and it's cost us . He also persisted far too long with Kucherenko which also cost us several points. I dont think we will,but if we do go down because of it then it's entirely on Jim Goodwin.

With Graham injured he really had no alternative but Bert though. The expectation would have been that Graham would have been over his injury issues sooner. Didn't help that the fans also had a Bert song very quickly. I think we are also over emphasising the Kuch issue. I'm not sure we were beating Falkirk and his other issues didn't cost us that many points. Agree that we needed to move on from him (which has been done as soon as possible) but the reality is that most teams in the league will drop points due to goalie errors through the season. The standard is pretty poor.

Tek · 07/1/2026 3:55 am

lifesanocean wrote:
Great post.

Thank you LAO.

I have felt for some time that our Academy has became a massive 'White Elephant'.

I am not trying to denigrate any of the young players involded in it btw. Not at all. And i most sincerely hope all of them go on and have long and illustrious careers. If not with Utd, then with other teams.

But, let's be honest, the Academy hasn't produced top players for many, many years. The last Internationalist's we produced were Harry and John Souttar, and in the same time period Stuart Armstrong and Ryan Gauld. This was all 10-15 years ago now.

In the period since, literally millions spent on the Academy (600k x 15 = 9M).

Zero, new Scottish Internationalist's produced (apart from GMS and Shankland, neither Academy though, just good signings).

How many Academy lads sold for big money or moved on to bigger things and smashing it elsewhere? Zero

Now, look up the road 100 yards.

Luke Graham getting tipped to go for significant money soon.

This in the same 6 months they've sold Luke McCowan to Celtic, Lyle Cameron to Rangers and Josh Mulligan to Hibs.

And i realise McCowan wasn't a Dundee Academy player btw ,but they still signed him fairly young and developed him.

They seem to be doing better than us in recruitment, locally.

A lot to ponder tbh.

Shakey Isles Arab · 07/1/2026 8:42 am

Geez.
Stark when you put it that way.

Ties in with what I'm saying Post #53
If there's a problem set whereby the Fun are catching and indeed besting us we need to get a fxxx up ourselves.
Instinct tells me the Fun set a low bar.
Quite the contrary, we've let a lethargy set in summed up by a 10 draw season and humblings by the Fun.

We don't want to be hurdling low bars, we want to setting high bars.

Last edited by Shakey Isles Arab (07/1/2026 8:56 am)

Finn Seemann · 07/1/2026 9:56 am

Difficult to argue with Tek's take on the Academy. However, I am not sure that the fan base should be looking over to Dens as the way forward. They have produced some talent recently but I'd argue that that talent is more through being deep-ended due to lack of other resource. Coupled with that comes a team constantly in the bottom half of the league at best.

United fans won't accept that mediocrity hence we buy in 'better' players rather than properly grow our own. It is a business and ultimately actions will be determined by bums on seats. Attendances are up so the management will assume that is because they are doing it right...

Conway11 · 07/1/2026 11:14 am

Finn Seemann wrote:
Difficult to argue with Tek's take on the Academy. However, I am not sure that the fan base should be looking over to Dens as the way forward. They have produced some talent recently but I'd argue that that talent is more through being deep-ended due to lack of other resource. Coupled with that comes a team constantly in the bottom half of the league at best.

United fans won't accept that mediocrity hence we buy in 'better' players rather than properly grow our own. It is a business and ultimately actions will be determined by bums on seats. Attendances are up so the management will assume that is because they are doing it right...

It runs deeper than that Finn (academy wise)

absolutely we have regressed in academy status

I am forever hearing stories of young players being snapped up by Dundee from us or before we have even spoken to them.

It has been an absolute disgrace since Stevie Campbell left.

Shedtastic · 07/1/2026 11:37 am

Wasn't Lyle Cameron with us first before he ended up at Dens?

Conway11 · 07/1/2026 11:49 am

Shedtastic wrote:
Wasn't Lyle Cameron with us first before he ended up at Dens?

Yep, released for being too small - after selling Ryan Gauld for £3m ffs

Jack Hendry too. Released

Shakey Isles Arab · 07/1/2026 9:48 pm

We want the best of both worlds.
That's what we pay for.
Good academy + good signings.
Not hard

RogerTheAlien · 07/1/2026 10:06 pm

Conway11 wrote:
Shedtastic wrote:
Wasn't Lyle Cameron with us first before he ended up at Dens?

Yep, released for being too small - after selling Ryan Gauld for £3m ffs

Jack Hendry too. Released

They two get punted but Kai Fotheringham and Miller Thomson managed to get 63 & 24 games respectively for the first team.

SlatefordArab · 08/1/2026 9:53 am

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it?

The history of football is full pf players who were deemed not good enough at one club, then go on to be very good players elsewhere.

Perhaps Cameron just didn't look like he was going to be good enough when United let him go and he improved at a later age? Look at the players we've had who've looked excellent in the youth teams that then went on to disappoint in the 1st team - Stephen McConalouge anyone?

Equally, we've also picked up some players ala the Cameron situation - Andy Robertson was told the same thing by Celtic,