Apparently hibs and rangers also implicated. Considering all the nonsense about foreign players and this - it does seem that a few in the press don’t like United.

In any case - is worrying. We can say it’s on Ogren, and it is. But ultimately, if we have to pay, he will just add it onto the debt or cut the budget.

Last edited by Slotbadger (06/8/2025 3:04 pm)

Finn Seemann wrote:

This one is on Ogren.  Plenty folk telling him (if he'd have listened) that the Fat Controller was taking him for a ride.  He's been lucky that the integration away from Asghar has actually been fairly smooth.  I'm ok if he's seeking the best deal he can get out of HMRC, but he needs to pay his taxes and put it down to experience (of which I hope he is learning from). He's certainly not getting an exit with that issue unresolved.

 
It does make you wonder if Scott or Mark Ogren knew about this and were reassured that everything was fine. Or if they didn't know about it because of being too hands off and assuming that the Fat Controller was a football management expert.

It also makes you wonder if there might be any other nasty surprises yet to emerge.

The West Coast media will probably tread carefully on this given Hibs, Rangers, Chelsea and Forest also among the clubs who took advantage of it. I would imagine any repayment might be negotiated as payable in instalments.
Derek Bond has come over all Bill Clinton and basically claiming his signature or a template of it was used without his permission.
Eh excuse me Derek, you were the Finance Director, correct?

Not good is it.

Last edited by redford_must_score (06/8/2025 4:12 pm)

Arabdownsouth wrote:

redford_must_score wrote:

Finn Seemann wrote:

This one is on Ogren.  Plenty folk telling him (if he'd have listened) that the Fat Controller was taking him for a ride.  He's been lucky that the integration away from Asghar has actually been fairly smooth.  I'm ok if he's seeking the best deal he can get out of HMRC, but he needs to pay his taxes and put it down to experience (of which I hope he is learning from). He's certainly not getting an exit with that issue unresolved.

 
It does make you wonder if Scott or Mark Ogren knew about this and were reassured that everything was fine. Or if they didn't know about it because of being too hands off and assuming that the Fat Controller was a football management expert.

It also makes you wonder if there might be any other nasty surprises yet to emerge.

The West Coast media will probably tread carefully on this given Hibs, Rangers, Chelsea and Forest also among the clubs who took advantage of it. I would imagine any repayment might be negotiated as payable in instalments.
Derek Bond has come over all Bill Clinton and basically claiming his signature or a template of it was used without his permission.
Eh excuse me David, you were the Finance Director, correct?

Not good is it.

 
Is it Derek, David or James? 😋

 
Brooke

redford_must_score wrote:

Finn Seemann wrote:

This one is on Ogren.  Plenty folk telling him (if he'd have listened) that the Fat Controller was taking him for a ride.  He's been lucky that the integration away from Asghar has actually been fairly smooth.  I'm ok if he's seeking the best deal he can get out of HMRC, but he needs to pay his taxes and put it down to experience (of which I hope he is learning from). He's certainly not getting an exit with that issue unresolved.

 
It does make you wonder if Scott or Mark Ogren knew about this and were reassured that everything was fine. Or if they didn't know about it because of being too hands off and assuming that the Fat Controller was a football management expert.

It also makes you wonder if there might be any other nasty surprises yet to emerge.

The West Coast media will probably tread carefully on this given Hibs, Rangers, Chelsea and Forest also among the clubs who took advantage of it. I would imagine any repayment might be negotiated as payable in instalments.
Derek Bond has come over all Bill Clinton and basically claiming his signature or a template of it was used without his permission.
Eh excuse me Derek, you were the Finance Director, correct?

Not good is it.

Indeed.  He may not have signed it, but he has to have known about it.  If not, not exactly good PR for his accountancy business...

Cant wait for the day our club stops being negativley affected by actions made during ashgars time at the club. Finally got rid of certain big earners signed under his watch now this

Tek wrote:

Jims Beard wrote:

Cant wait for the day our club stops being negativley affected by actions made during ashgars time at the club. Finally got rid of certain big earners signed under his watch now this

The man who signs everything off is still in charge.

I've said it many times, he's either grossly naive or himself a bit of a Cowboy.

The failed Golf club 'Ponzi Scheme' was a massive red flag for me regards Mr Ogren.

I do of course believe Tony Asghar was a complete confidence trickster, but 'Birds of a Feather flock together' is an old saying with a strong basis in truth.
 

Interesting point tek, what one do you think it is? I guess i like to give ogren the benefit of the doubt purely on the basis i dont to admit our club is run by a shyster
 

Have to agree with the extremely naive bit, your average joe knows scottish clubs rarely make a profit and breaking even is regarded as successful in a business sense. I guess thats why martin wanted out

Tangy wrote:

Do we actually know if ogres is here to make a profit off the annual income?

So many Americans involved in scottish football now and they can't all be naive.

What if he just wants the club to pay for itself (and start to pay off the debt).

For ogres to make a profit, he needed to invest in the team early. Grow the team = better performances = more income = higher value of the asset ie club. That plan is win win really - we get a good team, he gets his loans back and an asset to sell for more money. The flaw in the whole plan was that we got worse performances, rather than better

I seem to recall ogren being quite open about looking to make money out of united when he first bought us

My guess is asghar sold him united being one of the bigger scottish clubs available at a relativley cheap price due to being in the championship, who only a few years earlier were selling players regularly for big money, robertson, gauld, the tim two, ciftci etc


 

Jims Beard wrote:

New emails undermine the timeline of Dundee United's claim for more than £1.2m in relief from HMRC, according to a tax expert who warns that the Premiership club could face a massive financial penalty over the saga. (The Courier)

And the man we all know was behind all of this, evades punishment or any accountability. He hasn't even been mentioned in the various articles published.

Makes you sick.
 

Jims Beard wrote:

Tangy wrote:

Do we actually know if ogres is here to make a profit off the annual income?

So many Americans involved in scottish football now and they can't all be naive.

What if he just wants the club to pay for itself (and start to pay off the debt).

For ogres to make a profit, he needed to invest in the team early. Grow the team = better performances = more income = higher value of the asset ie club. That plan is win win really - we get a good team, he gets his loans back and an asset to sell for more money. The flaw in the whole plan was that we got worse performances, rather than better

I seem to recall ogren being quite open about looking to make money out of united when he first bought us

My guess is asghar sold him united being one of the bigger scottish clubs available at a relativley cheap price due to being in the championship, who only a few years earlier were selling players regularly for big money, robertson, gauld, the tim two, ciftci etc


 

 
Seems clear to me these Americans are buying European clubs because they can write off losses against their tax bill. They might have some fun along the way (Wrexham) and they might make some money some years. Bonus. But they can carry over losses for many years against vast wealth and then they can dump the club with all the actual debt at the end of it.

Macbonzo wrote:

Tek wrote:

Jims Beard wrote:

New emails undermine the timeline of Dundee United's claim for more than £1.2m in relief from HMRC, according to a tax expert who warns that the Premiership club could face a massive financial penalty over the saga. (The Courier)

And the man we all know was behind all of this, evades punishment or any accountability. He hasn't even been mentioned in the various articles published.

Makes you sick.
 

 
Another article in the paper today. Quotes another R&D tax expert, Paul Rosser. I’m actually pretty worried about this. At best it will impact our player budget, at worst deduction of points, reputational damage. I’m almost convinced that BBC Scotland will run a “Disclosures” programme on this.

 
Maybe, but don't forget there's one other Scottish club that also benefitted under the scheme - one of the Glasgow 2 - so it's not a given that BBC Glasgow will be as keen as you would think.

Arabdownsouth wrote:

redford_must_score wrote:

Macbonzo wrote:

 
Another article in the paper today. Quotes another R&D tax expert, Paul Rosser. I’m actually pretty worried about this. At best it will impact our player budget, at worst deduction of points, reputational damage. I’m almost convinced that BBC Scotland will run a “Disclosures” programme on this.

 
Maybe, but don't forget there's one other Scottish club that also benefitted under the scheme - one of the Glasgow 2 - so it's not a given that BBC Glasgow will be as keen as you would think.

 
Aye and for such a 'big' club,they're not getting anywhere near as much bad press as we are. Funny that? 🤔

 
I haven't seen one Scottish press article make reference to them in any meaningful way, it's pretty shabby. Although they benefitted less than we did.

But as Macbonzo says there will be a price to pay at some point.  However if we have decent representation we can maybe end up paying significantly less than the fearmongering articles have suggested.
This isn't a case of a dodgy shell company making profits and running without paying their tax, it's failure on the part of a reputable business to get the correct tax advice.

Edit to add....
The figure always mentioned is that the Club benefitted by "more than £1.2 million"
The casual reader might assume that the penalty will be £1.2 million plus interest.
However it might be that a portion of the £1.2 million relief claimed was actually legitimate, so the starting point for any repayment might be lower than this £1.2 million that gets mentioned as the headline in every press article.

On the other hand we might be f****d!

Last edited by redford_must_score (14/10/2025 2:11 pm)