Tekel Towers » Hibs vs United

CCX2 2010 · 04/5/2025 12:09 pm

Tek wrote:
I think today it was more evident than ever that the season has caught up with our small squad.

Some look like they are playing through injury, and others look like they've ran their race and have nothing more to offer the club. Despite trying too.

Mark Ogren needs to open up the purse strings and give whoever is Manager next season a far more competitive budget that will give us a better chance to compete fairly with Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs. We haven't even played many Cup games this season. And have had many free weekends, imagine we had less of them and more games. I can't imagine what state the squad would look like, availability wise and fatigue wise. Throw some European games into the mix and we simply must have a squad with far more depth next season, and also with more quality at our disposal.

This squad has done great to win us the Championship and get us Top 6 (minimum) and our appreciation should be shown to most of these players, but it's also time for the stark reality that if we are to go on to the next level we need to gut the squad again, and in the Summer we need to try and really build a squad for the future, one with more longevity, players that might be our mainstays over the next 2/3 years, so we aren't needing yet another massive rebuild in the Summer of 2026.

It's time for our Championship players to move on -

Gallagher, Moult, Watt, Fotheringham, Thomson, Middleton and yes even Ross Docherty, sadly.

We need to move on the signings this season that clearly haven't worked -

Babunski, VDS, Odada, Meshack, Campbell, Fiorini, Paton

And there are several youngsters out of contract. Most of these will also be moved on i'd imagine, bar maybe Charlie Dewar, Scott Constable and maybe Ruairidh Adams.

It will be a big rebuild, and i'm personally quite happy we have a new Head of Recruitment. I think there have been too many failures this season. We need a better average than 50% being failures. This has been a squad that has an obvious 'glass ceiling' and has now hit against that, despite admirably trying to break it.

We need an exciting batch of new players, one's you enjoy watching and where you think anything is possible with them including getting to Cup Finals again and really going after teams by playing attacking football. Not just grinding out 1-0's. That should always be the aim, otherwise what's the point?

Finally, we need to hit the ground running and get signings in the door early. We have a lot of business to do.

I agree with a lot of this especially on the recruitment, it must/needs to do better.

You highlight the lack of depth and that Ogren needs to loosen the purse strings, we brought in 3 players in January, only Campbell has contributed. What exactly was the point behind Fiorini, everyone knew that the left hand side nèding strengthening.

The lack of pace should have bee addressed last summer and the failure to have that threat has team pushing right up against us. What was it they saw in Paton that Moult or VDS can't do?

The only thing I disagree is that both Gallagher and Docherty should both be kept, hopefully we have more than 40 games next season, we will need a squad and some experienced heads about the place.

Morphman · 04/5/2025 4:16 pm

Good post Tek, think you're on the money.

Feel like I say this every week but seen in a few places criticism of the lineup, changes etc. But with the squad we've got I'm just not convinced there's much else we can do.

Feels like every week out only options are to bring on Trap and Middleton and usually you get about 5 minutes or so out of them before the opposition adjust and nullify them. The lack of pace upfront, which I do think Goodwin has to answer for as he's had 3 transfer windows to address that IMO, combined with a general lack of quality and creativity in the centre of midfield just makes us predictable.

If we can get the win Saturday then the purse strings really need to be loosened. Hopefully big wages like Watts and Middletons can be repurposed to bring in several new faces.

Last edited by Morphman (04/5/2025 4:17 pm)

Macbonzo · 04/5/2025 7:11 pm

Morphman wrote:
Good post Tek, think you're on the money.

Feel like I say this every week but seen in a few places criticism of the lineup, changes etc. But with the squad we've got I'm just not convinced there's much else we can do.

Feels like every week out only options are to bring on Trap and Middleton and usually you get about 5 minutes or so out of them before the opposition adjust and nullify them. The lack of pace upfront, which I do think Goodwin has to answer for as he's had 3 transfer windows to address that IMO, combined with a general lack of quality and creativity in the centre of midfield just makes us predictable.

If we can get the win Saturday then the purse strings really need to be loosened. Hopefully big wages like Watts and Middletons can be repurposed to bring in several new faces.

You never know how much money, Ogren (and it is solely Ogren) will make available. I actually think Cairney/Goodwin did a pretty good job with the money that I suspect Ogren made available. Let’s not forget Ogren is an “investor”, who was sold an idea that you could consistently generate young talent who you would sell on to bigger clubs with a sell on clause attached. That’s not going to happen this season.

I suspect Cairney moved on to bigger things having felt he had taken United as far as he could. Our new Data Analyst/Performance analyst I rate very highly (excellent academic record), but, if sufficient funds are not available he will be scuppered.

If I were Capuano and Goodwin, I would play hardball with Ogren. I would set a minimum figure for transfer funds and if that is not forthcoming tender their resignations. The one thing Ogren hates is to face accountability.

redford_must_score · 04/5/2025 8:07 pm

Macbonzo wrote:
Morphman wrote:
Good post Tek, think you're on the money.

Feel like I say this every week but seen in a few places criticism of the lineup, changes etc. But with the squad we've got I'm just not convinced there's much else we can do.

Feels like every week out only options are to bring on Trap and Middleton and usually you get about 5 minutes or so out of them before the opposition adjust and nullify them. The lack of pace upfront, which I do think Goodwin has to answer for as he's had 3 transfer windows to address that IMO, combined with a general lack of quality and creativity in the centre of midfield just makes us predictable.

If we can get the win Saturday then the purse strings really need to be loosened. Hopefully big wages like Watts and Middletons can be repurposed to bring in several new faces.

You never know how much money, Ogren (and it is solely Ogren) will make available. I actually think Cairney/Goodwin did a pretty good job with the money that I suspect Ogren made available. Let’s not forget Ogren is an “investor”, who was sold an idea that you could consistently generate young talent who you would sell on to bigger clubs with a sell on clause attached. That’s not going to happen this season.

I suspect Cairney moved on to bigger things having felt he had taken United as far as he could. Our new Data Analyst/Performance analyst I rate very highly (excellent academic record), but, if sufficient funds are not available he will be scuppered.

If I were Capuano and Goodwin, I would play hardball with Ogren. I would set a minimum figure for transfer funds and if that is not forthcoming tender their resignations. The one thing Ogren hates is to face accountability.

I hear you but as a coach there's a time to choose a hill to die on and in Goodwin's case I suspect that wouldn't be the time or the hill.

redford_must_score · 04/5/2025 8:32 pm

Tek wrote:
I think today it was more evident than ever that the season has caught up with our small squad.

Some look like they are playing through injury, and others look like they've ran their race and have nothing more to offer the club. Despite trying too.

Mark Ogren needs to open up the purse strings and give whoever is Manager next season a far more competitive budget that will give us a better chance to compete fairly with Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs. We haven't even played many Cup games this season. And have had many free weekends, imagine we had less of them and more games. I can't imagine what state the squad would look like, availability wise and fatigue wise. Throw some European games into the mix and we simply must have a squad with far more depth next season, and also with more quality at our disposal.

This squad has done great to win us the Championship and get us Top 6 (minimum) and our appreciation should be shown to most of these players, but it's also time for the stark reality that if we are to go on to the next level we need to gut the squad again, and in the Summer we need to try and really build a squad for the future, one with more longevity, players that might be our mainstays over the next 2/3 years, so we aren't needing yet another massive rebuild in the Summer of 2026.

It's time for our Championship players to move on -

Gallagher, Moult, Watt, Fotheringham, Thomson, Middleton and yes even Ross Docherty, sadly.

We need to move on the signings this season that clearly haven't worked -

Babunski, VDS, Odada, Meshack, Campbell, Fiorini, Paton

And there are several youngsters out of contract. Most of these will also be moved on i'd imagine, bar maybe Charlie Dewar, Scott Constable and maybe Ruairidh Adams.

It will be a big rebuild, and i'm personally quite happy we have a new Head of Recruitment. I think there have been too many failures this season. We need a better average than 50% being failures. This has been a squad that has an obvious 'glass ceiling' and has now hit against that, despite admirably trying to break it.

We need an exciting batch of new players, one's you enjoy watching and where you think anything is possible with them including getting to Cup Finals again and really going after teams by playing attacking football. Not just grinding out 1-0's. That should always be the aim, otherwise what's the point?

Finally, we need to hit the ground running and get signings in the door early. We have a lot of business to do.

Well thought through post.
Agree with pretty much everything including the departures. Said a while back that I felt we were done.

Recruitment this summer is going to define our coming season. And it needs to be better.

Finn Seemann · 05/5/2025 9:28 am

The reality is our squad is threadbare as there was no real money to build it. We have one of the smallest squads in the league. It was a poor display for the first half hour on Saturday, but the first goal was a fluke and the second a surprising error between Manny and Gallagher who have worked together well all season. Both I think were playing on fumes and in that instance there was no Stephenson or Sevelj to cover them from midfield. Bar that we actually played OK until they were able to bring on late subs who actually improved the team. Gayle is a quality player - if he was in our squad he's have played 90 minutes every week, but Hibs have such a big squad that he can get 15 minutes most weeks just to help them close out games.

I think Holt going has screwed us. It's pretty clear that Goodwin doesn't think Cleall-Harding is ready yet. He got him to warm up when Manny was struggling but didn't put him on - opting for Campbell instead. We needed to chase the game at that point so I was OK with putting on a non-defender, but once again Campbell did nothing much.

Stillliving · 05/5/2025 10:13 am

Finn Seemann wrote:
The reality is our squad is threadbare as there was no real money to build it. We have one of the smallest squads in the league. It was a poor display for the first half hour on Saturday, but the first goal was a fluke and the second a surprising error between Manny and Gallagher who have worked together well all season. Both I think were playing on fumes and in that instance there was no Stephenson or Sevelj to cover them from midfield. Bar that we actually played OK until they were able to bring on late subs who actually improved the team. Gayle is a quality player - if he was in our squad he's have played 90 minutes every week, but Hibs have such a big squad that he can get 15 minutes most weeks just to help them close out games.

I think Holt going has screwed us. It's pretty clear that Goodwin doesn't think Cleall-Harding is ready yet. He got him to warm up when Manny was struggling but didn't put him on - opting for Campbell instead. We needed to chase the game at that point so I was OK with putting on a non-defender, but once again Campbell did nothing much.

I would agree that for large parts of the match we did ok. I would also agree with JG comments that Hibs looked faster and sharper than UTD.
Gray was able to bring on Campbell for Hoilett around the hour mark this allowed them to shore up the midfield and effectively killed of our comeback.
JG has a lot of thinking to do around his ST Mirren lineup.

Conway11 · 05/5/2025 3:41 pm

You have taken us far as you can, Jim.

Call it a day and let us flourish with a new HOR and a new manager that can take us to the next level.

OYP.

Arabdownsouth · 05/5/2025 3:46 pm

Conway11 wrote:
You have taken us far as you can, Jim.

Call it a day and let us flourish with a new HOR and a new manager that can take us to the next level.

OYP.

Get a grip mate, most people were expecting us to go straight back down. Top six with a strong chance of European qualification, yeah let's sack the manager and start the fucking merry-go-round again!

Deary me

Morphman · 05/5/2025 5:58 pm

redford_must_score wrote:
Macbonzo wrote:
Morphman wrote:
Good post Tek, think you're on the money.

Feel like I say this every week but seen in a few places criticism of the lineup, changes etc. But with the squad we've got I'm just not convinced there's much else we can do.

Feels like every week out only options are to bring on Trap and Middleton and usually you get about 5 minutes or so out of them before the opposition adjust and nullify them. The lack of pace upfront, which I do think Goodwin has to answer for as he's had 3 transfer windows to address that IMO, combined with a general lack of quality and creativity in the centre of midfield just makes us predictable.

If we can get the win Saturday then the purse strings really need to be loosened. Hopefully big wages like Watts and Middletons can be repurposed to bring in several new faces.

You never know how much money, Ogren (and it is solely Ogren) will make available. I actually think Cairney/Goodwin did a pretty good job with the money that I suspect Ogren made available. Let’s not forget Ogren is an “investor”, who was sold an idea that you could consistently generate young talent who you would sell on to bigger clubs with a sell on clause attached. That’s not going to happen this season.

I suspect Cairney moved on to bigger things having felt he had taken United as far as he could. Our new Data Analyst/Performance analyst I rate very highly (excellent academic record), but, if sufficient funds are not available he will be scuppered.

If I were Capuano and Goodwin, I would play hardball with Ogren. I would set a minimum figure for transfer funds and if that is not forthcoming tender their resignations. The one thing Ogren hates is to face accountability.

I hear you but as a coach there's a time to choose a hill to die on and in Goodwin's case I suspect that wouldn't be the time or the hill.

I get what you're saying about Ogren being an investor but if he is to recover any of his money then he will need to invest again this year. The only way to make money in Scottish football is repeated forays in to Europe and by player sales. We need better, younger players to achieve either.

If rumours are true then Watt and Middleton alone cost the club 7K+ a week currently. A simple reinvestment of those wages alone combined with a few outgoings would give JG substantial room to manouvere and that's before we take in to account top 6 money and hopefully at least 1 European fixture.

Don't think JG would go with a back me or sack me attitude at this point, but I think he'll be going to Ogren and saying "I've delivered 2 years running, give me a little more to give us a chance."

Additional thing to take in to account is that if we are to make any money off transfers then we will need to rely much less on loanees this season. Be interesting to see how much of Adegboyega, Dalby, Walton and Stephensons wages we were paying this season.

Shakey Isles Arab · 05/5/2025 10:22 pm

Conway11 wrote:
You have taken us far as you can, Jim.

Call it a day and let us flourish with a new HOR and a new manager that can take us to the next level.

OYP.

. ..... Ho hum

Conway11 · 06/5/2025 4:01 pm

Arabdownsouth wrote:
Conway11 wrote:
You have taken us far as you can, Jim.

Call it a day and let us flourish with a new HOR and a new manager that can take us to the next level.

OYP.

Get a grip mate, most people were expecting us to go straight back down. Top six with a strong chance of European qualification, yeah let's sack the manager and start the fucking merry-go-round again!

Deary me

Okay, give him a 10 year deal then? Riveting football for years to come!

No thanks - mediocrity seeps from the boardroom onto the pitch.

Get rid now before it is far too late.

Macbonzo · 06/5/2025 5:18 pm

Conway11 wrote:
Arabdownsouth wrote:
Conway11 wrote:
You have taken us far as you can, Jim.

Call it a day and let us flourish with a new HOR and a new manager that can take us to the next level.

OYP.

Get a grip mate, most people were expecting us to go straight back down. Top six with a strong chance of European qualification, yeah let's sack the manager and start the fucking merry-go-round again!

Deary me
Okay, give him a 10 year deal then? Riveting football for years to come!

No thanks - mediocrity seeps from the boardroom onto the pitch.

Get rid now before it is far too late.

To some extent you need to choose which you want: Do you want to be successful in terms of achievement (subject to budgetary constraints), or do you want football which is pleasing to watch? Aberdeen go rid of McIness because fans didn’t enjoy the style of football. I’d argue that was a mistake. Airdrie are backing McCabe to develop a style of football (a philosophy, I suppose) despite having a horrendous season in terms of results. Can you have your cake and eat it? I don’t think so.

Finn Seemann · 06/5/2025 5:32 pm

I might be getting my heroes from more distant and better times, but there is a slight irony to accusing an acceptance of mediocrity and having Craig Conway as your name and avatar.

Goodwin is far from perfect, but I think he's due some credit in getting us where we are against the backdrop of having to manage a post-Asghar environment and squad whilst contending with our errant but not erudite owner. Against that backdrop he really should be getting awards for where we are.

Last edited by Finn Seemann (06/5/2025 5:33 pm)

Arabdownsouth · 06/5/2025 5:41 pm

Conway11 wrote:
Arabdownsouth wrote:
Conway11 wrote:
You have taken us far as you can, Jim.

Call it a day and let us flourish with a new HOR and a new manager that can take us to the next level.

OYP.

Get a grip mate, most people were expecting us to go straight back down. Top six with a strong chance of European qualification, yeah let's sack the manager and start the fucking merry-go-round again!

Deary me
Okay, give him a 10 year deal then? Riveting football for years to come!

No thanks - mediocrity seeps from the boardroom onto the pitch.

Get rid now before it is far too late.

Aye and how's the other model been working out exactly? How many managers have we been through the last ten years cos I've lost count. We need continuity instead of this nonsense about sacking a manager who's got us promoted and very likely got us into Europe. I wasn't his biggest fan initially but he's done the business so that's enough for me.

Tek · 06/5/2025 11:47 pm

Finn Seemann wrote:
I might be getting my heroes from more distant and better times, but there is a slight irony to accusing an acceptance of mediocrity and having Craig Conway as your name and avatar.

Wtf?

The boy was a great player in a great side, that played football the right way. Also, one of only three players in our history to have scored twice in a Cup Final, and the only one to have done so at Hampden.

That's a strange old dig, Finn.

Conway11 · 07/5/2025 10:35 am

Tek wrote:
Finn Seemann wrote:
I might be getting my heroes from more distant and better times, but there is a slight irony to accusing an acceptance of mediocrity and having Craig Conway as your name and avatar.
Wtf?

The boy was a great player in a great side, that played football the right way. Also, one of only three players in our history to have scored twice in a Cup Final, and the only one to have done so at Hampden.

That's a strange old dig, Finn.

Absolutely bizarre, Tek

On the subject of mediocrity, Derek Lilley has the same amount of goals as Finn Seeman for us.

Wow.

Finn Seemann · 07/5/2025 1:12 pm

Intended to be a bit tongue in cheek - although I do think Conway was overrated. As I said, my idea of a good player harks back to the 80s. Also, Conway11's binary approach to Goodwin just annoyed me! No slight on Craigie boy intended...

Liked the Lilley comparison to Finn! But the reason he is my name and avatar has nothing to do with his ability (Lilley wasn't my old man's mate and the reason I ended up being an Arab). That said, 15 caps for his country probably pips Lilley's slightly better goal haul for United (albeit over more games).

Interestingly Finn's 15 caps and 4 goals also overshadows Conway's 7 caps (no goals) - both wingers too. Who capped Conway....!

Last edited by Finn Seemann (07/5/2025 1:15 pm)

Conway11 · 07/5/2025 2:20 pm

Finn Seemann wrote:
Intended to be a bit tongue in cheek - although I do think Conway was overrated. As I said, my idea of a good player harks back to the 80s. Also, Conway11's binary approach to Goodwin just annoyed me! No slight on Craigie boy intended...

Liked the Lilley comparison to Finn! But the reason he is my name and avatar has nothing to do with his ability (Lilley wasn't my old man's mate and the reason I ended up being an Arab). That said, 15 caps for his country probably pips Lilley's slightly better goal haul for United (albeit over more games).

Interestingly Finn's 15 caps and 4 goals also overshadows Conway's 7 caps (no goals) - both wingers too. Who capped Conway....!

Fair enough on the tongue-in-cheek tone Finn — but I think you're underplaying Conway a bit too much there

You might prefer players from a different era, and that’s totally valid, but Craig Conway wasn’t just decent — he was a major part of a genuinely good Dundee United team.

He contributed consistently over five seasons, with 159 appearances, and scored twice in the 2010 Scottish Cup Final at Hampden — a proper bit of club history.

Internationally - Finn Seemann’s 15 caps and 4 goals for Norway sounds better than Conway’s 7 (no goals), but let’s no forget that Norway weren’t top dogs in the 60s. Plus, Conway earned his Scotland caps in a far more competitive modern era with a deeper pool of players to break into.

Also worth noting — Conway helped get Cardiff into the Premier League and was a regular in the English Championship for years.

Seemann's a cult figure. But Conway's trophy haul, longevity, and big gemme moments at United put him clearly ahead for me when it comes to actual club impact.

So yep — Conway as an avatar? Far from mediocre

Finn Seemann · 07/5/2025 4:22 pm

Conway11 wrote:
Finn Seemann wrote:
Intended to be a bit tongue in cheek - although I do think Conway was overrated. As I said, my idea of a good player harks back to the 80s. Also, Conway11's binary approach to Goodwin just annoyed me! No slight on Craigie boy intended...

Liked the Lilley comparison to Finn! But the reason he is my name and avatar has nothing to do with his ability (Lilley wasn't my old man's mate and the reason I ended up being an Arab). That said, 15 caps for his country probably pips Lilley's slightly better goal haul for United (albeit over more games).

Interestingly Finn's 15 caps and 4 goals also overshadows Conway's 7 caps (no goals) - both wingers too. Who capped Conway....!

Fair enough on the tongue-in-cheek tone Finn — but I think you're underplaying Conway a bit too much there

You might prefer players from a different era, and that’s totally valid, but Craig Conway wasn’t just decent — he was a major part of a genuinely good Dundee United team.

He contributed consistently over five seasons, with 159 appearances, and scored twice in the 2010 Scottish Cup Final at Hampden — a proper bit of club history.

Internationally - Finn Seemann’s 15 caps and 4 goals for Norway sounds better than Conway’s 7 (no goals), but let’s no forget that Norway weren’t top dogs in the 60s. Plus, Conway earned his Scotland caps in a far more competitive modern era with a deeper pool of players to break into.

Also worth noting — Conway helped get Cardiff into the Premier League and was a regular in the English Championship for years.

Seemann's a cult figure. But Conway's trophy haul, longevity, and big gemme moments at United put him clearly ahead for me when it comes to actual club impact.

So yep — Conway as an avatar? Far from mediocre

We'll agree to disagree. I wasn't a massive fan, although, as you point out, he probably achieved more than I gave him credit for. As a cup winner he'll rightly be remembered just right up there with the other great cup winner Craig Brewster.