Canadian Arab wrote:

Finn Seemann wrote:

Like your dedication, but modern footballers should be capable of understanding at least 2 or 3 systems and where they fit into them.  If they don't they shouldn't play.  I don't think that takes months to learn.  As you say those systems need to be flexible enough to deal with what the opposition are doing too.  If Goodwin hasn't got 3 or 4 options every game then he's not much of a coach.  He clearly does have those options.  Last season he seemed to rely too much on option A, but he probably (and rightly) thought that option was good enough to win the league.  This season I think he's been a bit slow to change it up in some games, but Sunday's half time changes were timely and worked so maybe he's getting a little braver.  For me the starting line ups need to be a bit braver - especially at home against teams we need to be beating.  Confident that he'll start a little more positive on Saturday...

It's not "understanding" the system Finn. Of course they can all do that. It takes 2-3 months of working on that system every day in training to get to the point where players all do the right thing, at the right time, automatically, with everybody in sync. Good opponents are moving the ball around in order to make your team adjust their positions, and they are waiting for the time when one player doesn't get it right. You can get to probably 85% effectiveness within a week or two but you're still going to have enough errors occurring that you'll lose goals. To have 3 or 4 systems in place that work well with minimal errors would take an entire season of work on the training pitch. Goodwin has only had around 3ish months with this squad.
 

 
I remember when football was just football and not precision engineering. How do we explain Jim's failures against teams like Darvel and Spartans who all had full time jobs to go to but still made him look foolish. Surely to fuck professional footballers ought to be capable of marking a man and finding a teammate with a pass. The basic simplicity of what is essentially a game.

Canadian Arab wrote:

redford_must_score wrote:

I agree that honing a youth team or an amateur team in formations and flexibility in them would take longer and I'm presuming that's Canada's experience of it.

Obviously I didn't coach professionals but I've done semi-pro, university and top level youth (e.g. Alphonso Davies played in that league). I had a discussion with a UEFA Pro licence coach with pro coaching experience about the formation stuff and he was talking about professional men's teams when he told me 2-3 months full time to "master" a formation with a squad. He was making a comparison with a youth team training 2 or 3 times per week and how long it would take them to learn one formation.

ADS - this stuff has nothing to do with the basics of marking a man or finding a team mate with a pass. It's about where you are at all times relative to all of your team mates (but particularly your closest unit of team mates), the ball, and the opposition players that you are covering (marking or taking away channels). All of those things are moving all the time and therefore so are you. But I'm talking about your movement only needing to be made a second later than it should be, or to a position that's 2 or 3 yards from where you should actually move to, and that's the error that then gets punished. And this stuff is not new. The way it's talked about might be different, but wee Jim did exactly the same. There was an interview with a former player that I listened to a few years back (I think it was a midfielder but can't remember who) - they were an excellent player who came through the youth system, and he spoke at length about wee Jim teaching him when to play the pass. He was talking about the same pass to the same player, but made half a second later than the player would typically have made it, so that the shape was slightly different, the angle of the pass was slightly different, and the pass being made at that time would then have a domino effect that created a hole for someone to attack 3 or 4 seconds later, 30 yards away, that wouldn't have happened if the pass was made when the player would normally have made the pass. And because they knew that hole would be created, they also knew that Luggy would be arriving there just after it was created, and would then have the ball on the edge of the opposition's box, so Doddsy is already preparing for his run across the front of the centre-half. All of that came from wee Jim explaining to a lad why he needed to delay his pass by half a second. It seems like microscopic details, but wee Jim was all over that stuff. The end result was that we looked like a team that knew how to mark a man and knew how to find a team mate with a pass and therefore how to win a game, and we watch it and say "See how simple the game is!".

Also, it doesn't matter how technically gifted a player is. If a player has never trained on a particular formation, he will need to train for weeks so he does it correctly. There aren't any short cuts.
 

 
That's a bit disingenuous Canada because you're sneakily inferring that what Jim McLean did supports your view about players adapting to formations.
I accept and agree on the part you mention about timing of passes and the ability to hone and coach that along with positional intelligence.

I stand by what I said about players with good football intelligence being able to adapt much quicker than you suggest, especially if a club adds midweek attack v defence sessions in different formations run by a coach who knows what he's doing. And retain the flexibility of doing it on occasion on matchdays.

Don't want to get into a pissing contest with you but Guardiola would have top players adapted in a very short time, come down the leagues and abilities and the time rises but not massively on the proviso that you are getting buy in from the players.

Manuals and coaching badge tutors have over complicated the game. Did you watch the Euros where several unfancied countries competed really well with the top 4/5 fancied nations?
That was about organisation yes, shape yes, but also about bravery, belief, passion, will to win, attitude, and commitment, all areas with fairly short coverage in the manuals.

Canadian Arab wrote:

Stepping away from Tekel Towers, folks. Always enjoyed chatting here - a good bunch of passionate Arabs. Look after yourselves.
Andy.

Cheers Andy, shame to see you go, always good to get valued input.
 

Canadian Arab wrote:

Stepping away from Tekel Towers, folks. Always enjoyed chatting here - a good bunch of passionate Arabs. Look after yourselves.
Andy.

 
Hi Andy, I was really sorry to read this. I've always found your posts interesting. It would be a shame if you're stepping away because of the debate on this thread. Forums are about opinions and debate, even healthy disagreements and everyone's not going to agree all the time.

I hope you change your mind.
Arabest, Steve.

Canadian Arab wrote:

Stepping away from Tekel Towers, folks. Always enjoyed chatting here - a good bunch of passionate Arabs. Look after yourselves.
Andy.

Oh dear. 

Canadian Arab wrote:

Stepping away from Tekel Towers, folks. Always enjoyed chatting here - a good bunch of passionate Arabs. Look after yourselves.
Andy.

 
Hope you’re well mate, shame to see you go.

CA messaged me at the end of last week (didn't notice it as not many people message me).  Anyway he wanted to say his reasons for quitting are not related to the discussions on this thread and he's OK otherwise, so that's a relief, at least to me.  

He says he is going to read the chat now and then and I hope he changes his mind and joins in again soon.  I for one always read his posts with interest even if I didn't agree with everything he said.  For those like me who don't live in Dundee any more this (and it's inferior like) are a great way of keeping up with all things United as well as building a little camaraderie.  It's the breadth of opinion that makes this forum the best one.  We don't want it to become an echo chamber or the home of folk that think they are some sort of forum personality (like the other forums) and good posters leaving, for whatever reason, is not good.