Tekel Towers » The Utd '83 side

redford_must_score · 05/9/2024 11:53 pm

Tek wrote:
redford_must_score wrote:

Bottle does play a part. But to say they bottled both legs of the UEFA Cup Final is bizarre.
Bet you wouldn't sit in a room with the players and say that.

Were you at the 2 games TEK?
The only 'bizarre' thing is that response.

Not sure why people need to take these type of lighthearted threads to heart so much.

"Not sure why people need to take these type of lighthearted threads to heart so much"

No not taking anything to heart just trying to find out on what basis you made the statement about the players bottling the UEFA Cup final. Which you have yet to answer! I'm not taking anything to heart but the players surely deserve to hear your reason. So what is the basis for you saying that they bottled it?

Tek · 05/9/2024 11:55 pm

redford_must_score wrote:
So what is the basis for you saying that they bottled it?

They played 3 Finals and never won any.

P.s. i didn't say they didn't give everything. Effort is not something a Jim McLean side ever lacked.

redford_must_score · 05/9/2024 11:57 pm

Tek wrote:
redford_must_score wrote:

Can you not just admit for once you were wrong?
For an opinion?

No.

An opinion you won't explain.
Fine that tells me the answer.
I was at both games and the players bottled nothing.

We move on.

Tek · 06/9/2024 12:05 am

David_Blunkett wrote:
The most obvious answer would be probably, yes, quite a few could, mostly down to fitness the way the game has changed and the fact a huge core of that 82/83 team often shat their pants in one off games.

Would you say that to the players faces though?

Asking for a friend.

kdyteejay · 06/9/2024 8:41 am

David_Blunkett wrote:
Bottled is probably harsh in terms of the Uefa cup, ridiculous bounce on a shitey pitch in the 1st leg, Thomson beaten too easily in the second which killed it, but If I remember correctly it was just a tired couple of performances at the end of a real slog of a season, Kirkie missed a great chance at 0-0.

Had we not been robbed of the winner v St Mirren, we turn over Gothenburg.

We definitely bottled cup finals though, mostly v Celtic.

This is how I remember it.

Finn Seemann · 06/9/2024 8:52 am

Tek wrote:
Finn Seemann wrote:
Very few people who were at that game (and sober (not me)) gave us much chance before going into it. We had some really average players (excuse Mo and Sash) and for me only McKinlay and maybe, at a stretch Dave Bowman, could have improved the 82/83 team. The '94 team finished 6th in the league (and only two points safe from relegation) and needed replays to beat Motherwell, Airdrieonians and Aberdeen to get there - it was just a written in the stars event. They were genuinely a pretty average United team, although hard to beat (and never lost a game all season by more than 2 goals).
Whilst the '94 side had a poor league season i am surprised you cite them needing replays to beat Airdrie, Motherwell and Aberdeen as a negative. Surely that could also be seen as overcoming adversity?

The '94 team were a 'big game' team for me.

Won 0-3 at Ibrox
Won 1-0 vs Celtic at Tannadice
Drew both games at Parkhead
Won the replay at Fir Park

Played at Hampden 3 times in a month, drawing one and winning two. A stadium we hadn't won a big game at since 1974.

They actually played 7 games that season in Glasgow between 2 at Ibrox, 2 at Parkhead and 3 at Hampden and lost only one. And even that was a 2-1 defeat where we were denied the World's biggest stonewaller penalty ever.

They might not have been consistent or have been our best ever Utd side

BUT...

They had 'bottle' and a bit of swagger at times. Those are huge qualities in one-off Cup games.

A fair defence of your case, but I'm still not convinced they get close to the league winning side.

lifesanocean · 06/9/2024 4:34 pm

The 82/83 team were abysmal in the 81 Scottish Cup Final (the replay especially) and the 1984 League Cup Final against Rangers. The mental thing 100% stemmed from us not winning the 1981 League Cup Final v Rangers when Sturrock's goal was disallowed. We win that I reckon we'd have won every subsequent cup final.

Get what you are saying about the 94 team in one-off games TEK. But they also were lucky not to get relegated and got relegated the year after losing plenty of big games along the way. The Aberdeen game up there was a 'cup final' and were never at the races.

Last edited by lifesanocean (06/9/2024 4:35 pm)

Arabdownsouth · 06/9/2024 7:55 pm

lifesanocean wrote:
The 82/83 team were abysmal in the 81 Scottish Cup Final (the replay especially) and the 1984 League Cup Final against Rangers. The mental thing 100% stemmed from us not winning the 1981 League Cup Final v Rangers when Sturrock's goal was disallowed. We win that I reckon we'd have won every subsequent cup final.

Get what you are saying about the 94 team in one-off games TEK. But they also were lucky not to get relegated and got relegated the year after losing plenty of big games along the way. The Aberdeen game up there was a 'cup final' and were never at the races.

My memory is really poor regarding the actual game itself (the replay I mean) but I do remember our bus window getting put through as we were leaving. I went to every final we lost but missed the 94 one as I was in Corfu,just my fucking luck really. That's why 2010 was really special for me.

Macbonzo · 07/9/2024 3:00 pm

Canadian Arab wrote:
Arabdownsouth wrote:
I went to every final we lost but missed the 94 one as I was in Corfu,just my fucking luck really. That's why 2010 was really special for me.
I went to every final we lost, left the UK to work in Canada in 1993 and have missed both our final wins since. The last silverware I saw us lift in person was the league trophy, over 41 years ago.

We should have beat Rangers in the first 1981 LC final, despite not being great. Luggy's goal getting chalked off took the wind out of our sails. We were brutal in the replay. Re: LAO's comment, if we had won that one, we might not have won all the subsequent finals in the 80s and early 90s but I think we would have won most of them. We might also have been able to hold our nerve in Roma.

We could have matched Aberdeen's trophy haul during the Fergie years, and have one of those wee stars on our shirt now (the stars that mean we won a European Cup, not the stars used in the Old Firm biggest dick contest for winning 10 league titles in the absence of any competition).

Yes, that was my experience. I missed 1994 but attended 81 plus, replay, 85,87,88 and 91. I think, we might be skating around a rather sensitive, probably uncomfortable fact, which is, it wasn’t the team that bottled it, it was Jim McLean.

What was the difference in 1994? Ivan Golac. The man who rather than train the team the day before the final, took the team a walk in the park. Any great team has to believe they can win. McLean was a master tactician, but also a bully with an inferiority complex. The difference between him and Fergie was that Fergie knew how to get best out of his players without resorting to fear and he believed his team was better than the Old Firm.

When McLean brought in the psychologists he forgot to include himself as the subject.

Tek · 07/9/2024 4:32 pm

Macbonzo wrote:
Canadian Arab wrote:
Arabdownsouth wrote:
I went to every final we lost but missed the 94 one as I was in Corfu,just my fucking luck really. That's why 2010 was really special for me.
I went to every final we lost, left the UK to work in Canada in 1993 and have missed both our final wins since. The last silverware I saw us lift in person was the league trophy, over 41 years ago.

We should have beat Rangers in the first 1981 LC final, despite not being great. Luggy's goal getting chalked off took the wind out of our sails. We were brutal in the replay. Re: LAO's comment, if we had won that one, we might not have won all the subsequent finals in the 80s and early 90s but I think we would have won most of them. We might also have been able to hold our nerve in Roma.

We could have matched Aberdeen's trophy haul during the Fergie years, and have one of those wee stars on our shirt now (the stars that mean we won a European Cup, not the stars used in the Old Firm biggest dick contest for winning 10 league titles in the absence of any competition).

Yes, that was my experience. I missed 1994 but attended 81 plus, replay, 85,87,88 and 91. I think, we might be skating around a rather sensitive, probably uncomfortable fact, which is, it wasn’t the team that bottled it, it was Jim McLean.

What was the difference in 1994? Ivan Golac. The man who rather than train the team the day before the final, took the team a walk in the park. Any great team has to believe they can win. McLean was a master tactician, but also a bully with an inferiority complex. The difference between him and Fergie was that Fergie knew how to get best out of his players without resorting to fear and he believed his team was better than the Old Firm.

When McLean brought in the psychologists he forgot to include himself as the subject.

Good post Macbonzo.

Shedtastic · 07/9/2024 4:55 pm

Macbonzo wrote:
Canadian Arab wrote:
Arabdownsouth wrote:
I went to every final we lost but missed the 94 one as I was in Corfu,just my fucking luck really. That's why 2010 was really special for me.
I went to every final we lost, left the UK to work in Canada in 1993 and have missed both our final wins since. The last silverware I saw us lift in person was the league trophy, over 41 years ago.

We should have beat Rangers in the first 1981 LC final, despite not being great. Luggy's goal getting chalked off took the wind out of our sails. We were brutal in the replay. Re: LAO's comment, if we had won that one, we might not have won all the subsequent finals in the 80s and early 90s but I think we would have won most of them. We might also have been able to hold our nerve in Roma.

We could have matched Aberdeen's trophy haul during the Fergie years, and have one of those wee stars on our shirt now (the stars that mean we won a European Cup, not the stars used in the Old Firm biggest dick contest for winning 10 league titles in the absence of any competition).

Yes, that was my experience. I missed 1994 but attended 81 plus, replay, 85,87,88 and 91. I think, we might be skating around a rather sensitive, probably uncomfortable fact, which is, it wasn’t the team that bottled it, it was Jim McLean.

What was the difference in 1994? Ivan Golac. The man who rather than train the team the day before the final, took the team a walk in the park. Any great team has to believe they can win. McLean was a master tactician, but also a bully with an inferiority complex. The difference between him and Fergie was that Fergie knew how to get best out of his players without resorting to fear and he believed his team was better than the Old Firm.

When McLean brought in the psychologists he forgot to include himself as the subject.

People tend to forget that McLean lost a cup final very early when with United (1974) but won the next two, beating Fergie's Aberdeen for our first major honour, not accepting this bottle merchant vibe.

Tek · 07/9/2024 7:01 pm

Shedtastic wrote:
People tend to forget that McLean lost a cup final very early when with United (1974) but won the next two, beating Fergie's Aberdeen for our first major honour, not accepting this bottle merchant vibe.

I don't think anyone is forgetting our amazing League Cup wins.

But they were both in Dundee (not trying to take anything away from either btw, because we were great in both Finals).

But we were never the same team at Hampden. Never gave the best impression of ourselves. That is just a regrettable fact.

Macbonzo · 07/9/2024 8:27 pm

I recall the Utd v Aberdeen Bells final at Hampden (I wasn’t at the replay). Although I was very young, I think it was a poor performance. McLean frequently used the word “provincial” or “corner shop” to describe Utd. I don’t recall Fergie ever using the same terminology to describe Aberdeen or Clough using it to describe Forest.

I’m not denigrating or belittling McLean’s achievements, but, my lowest point (even to this day), supporting Utd, was standing alone on the Hampden terraces watching St Mirren win the 1987 Scottish Cup. It wasn’t Rangers or Celtic, it was bloody St Mirren.

Last edited by Macbonzo (07/9/2024 8:41 pm)

redford_must_score · 07/9/2024 8:59 pm

Macbonzo wrote:
I recall the Utd v Aberdeen Bells final at Hampden (I wasn’t at the replay). Although I was very young, I think it was a poor performance. McLean frequently used the word “provincial” or “corner shop” to describe Utd. I don’t recall Fergie ever using the same terminology to describe Aberdeen or Clough using it to describe Forest.

I’m not denigrating or belittling McLean’s achievements, but, my lowest point (even to this day), supporting Utd, was standing alone on the Hampden terraces watching St Mirren win the 1987 Scottish Cup. It wasn’t Rangers or Celtic, it was bloody St Mirren.

Would agree with the first paragraph, you wonder if that seeped into the players heads a bit.

Stillliving · 07/9/2024 9:45 pm

I think in this debate we are under rating
The quality of some of the Rangers (original version) and Celtic teams we lost to.
The finals in 81×2 84 85 & 88 were for me 50/50 games.
The 87 final was the one where we drastically under performed.