Finn Seemann wrote:

We've been the least pish in a pish league.  We've lost cup ties to teams 1 and 2 leagues below us.  Our football has at times been turgid.  The squad we've currently got is miles off staying up next season.  Our owner is a basket case and our manager has managed to get a squad of very average players (built with easily the largest budget in the league) to the top of the league (potentially only by goal difference). 

However the revisionists are feeling all warm and fuzzy because we are back in the big time.  There is a lot of work to do in the close season to build a squad for the next level.  Is Goodwin the man to do that?  That might not matter if Ogren is still in charge, but in any case I think the answer is no.  However, if it is still Ogren then we'd be as well sticking with him as I would have absolutely no trust in Ogren finding anyone in his price range that would be any better (and probably worse).

Still a great time to be an Arab...

100% agree

Regarding the points on the previous page - we have limped over. It has taken until the second last game of the season to be officially winners. The football style is horrible which sets the standard for next season. If we can't blow teams away with the squad we have in this tinpot league - imagine what we will be like on an even keel (maybe) next season? Keeping him is just delaying the inevitiable, he will be sacked in the first 6 months of next season if he stays - he has scottish capped players in this squad and they have looked like dug meat in some games this season. Just a few weeks ago he was schooled by McPake FFS. Now we are close to the end of the season and we look like winners it has clouded boys judgement a bit. On the whole this season has been a slog. With some embarrassing losses. We will not be playing Arbroath/Queens Park next season and sadly he will be found out. Get rid now and lets start a fresh.

we have done what's been expected of us way more comfortably than Dundee and Kilmarnock did it.

Morphman wrote:

Conway11 wrote:

Finn Seemann wrote:

We've been the least pish in a pish league.  We've lost cup ties to teams 1 and 2 leagues below us.  Our football has at times been turgid.  The squad we've currently got is miles off staying up next season.  Our owner is a basket case and our manager has managed to get a squad of very average players (built with easily the largest budget in the league) to the top of the league (potentially only by goal difference). 

However the revisionists are feeling all warm and fuzzy because we are back in the big time.  There is a lot of work to do in the close season to build a squad for the next level.  Is Goodwin the man to do that?  That might not matter if Ogren is still in charge, but in any case I think the answer is no.  However, if it is still Ogren then we'd be as well sticking with him as I would have absolutely no trust in Ogren finding anyone in his price range that would be any better (and probably worse).

Still a great time to be an Arab...

100% agree

Regarding the points on the previous page - we have limped over. It has taken until the second last game of the season to be officially winners. The football style is horrible which sets the standard for next season. If we can't blow teams away with the squad we have in this tinpot league - imagine what we will be like on an even keel (maybe) next season? Keeping him is just delaying the inevitiable, he will be sacked in the first 6 months of next season if he stays - he has scottish capped players in this squad and they have looked like dug meat in some games this season. Just a few weeks ago he was schooled by McPake FFS. Now we are close to the end of the season and we look like winners it has clouded boys judgement a bit. On the whole this season has been a slog. With some embarrassing losses. We will not be playing Arbroath/Queens Park next season and sadly he will be found out. Get rid now and lets start a fresh.

Going to attempt to answer both of these in one go.

I don't think there are many revisionists out there, at least not on this forum, although I don't use any form of social media for a few years now. There's not a comment in here from anyone who is "in support" of Goodwin that has said that the current squad will manage in the premiership, or that the football played was particularly enthralling. The club, to it's credit, signed the bulk of the current squad on fairly short term deals this season, meaning we have should have a bit of a budget to improve and hopefully consolidate our position in the prem.

The Scottish cup game vs Queens really was one of those games, we absolutey battered them for 120 minutes and got beat. However, the league cup at the start of the term was an absolute embarassment to be knocked out of, no doubt.

You'll not convince me that moving on from Goodwin would be a smart move. Aberdeen's crazy affair with Warnock sealed that for me. They went for a very proven manager from a different country and he could barely get a tune out of an Aberdeen team in the premiership that would likely beat our current squad fairly comfotably.

We have not limped over the line at all, this idea that we should have a league wrapped up in early March is absolute drivel. It's Old Firm levels of entitlement to believe that we should have crushed this league, it simply does not work like that.

"On the whole this season has been a slog. With some embarrassing losses. We will not be playing Arbroath/Queens Park next season and sadly he will be found out"

Perhaps he will get found out, however, every loss in the championship is going to be seen as an embarassing loss if you believe that we are entitled to go out and crush championship teams who are inevitably going to raise their game when playing the biggest club in the league, and the title favourites.

"If we can't blow teams away with the squad we have in this tinpot league"

We've a goal difference of +47, even if we had only beat Arbroath (who we did blow away this season) by a single goal each time, then our GD would still be in the mid 30s. Not bad in a league where probably 7 of the 9 other teams just sat in against us at Tannadice.

Some of that is fair enough.  The issue for me with Goodwin is that the football was painful and he didn't seem to have any plan beyond the plan in games that weren't going his way.  In the end he stumbled across a solution due to injuries.  Granted, beyond the League Cup debacle we actually started the season well.  The plan worked.  By the time we got to the third round of games and had a few injuries the plan had been sussed by any decent opposition manager (even McPake!) and we suffered.  That coupled with the capitulation at the end of last season has me doubting whether Goodwin has the ability to get the players playing the 2 or 3 different systems that he is going to need to survive in the Prem (and may need to adopt more than one system within the 90 minutes of a game to survive.  

That said, I think the revisionist view (which is forget about the abject failings and concentrate on the fact we won the league) will prevail due to the ownership situation and the lack of funds which will mean Jim starts the season as boss.  It is relevant to out of contract players as there is no point in thinking about them if the manager's position is in question (which it clearly should be).

dufc2019 wrote:

Finn Seemann wrote:

Morphman wrote:

Going to attempt to answer both of these in one go.

I don't think there are many revisionists out there, at least not on this forum, although I don't use any form of social media for a few years now. There's not a comment in here from anyone who is "in support" of Goodwin that has said that the current squad will manage in the premiership, or that the football played was particularly enthralling. The club, to it's credit, signed the bulk of the current squad on fairly short term deals this season, meaning we have should have a bit of a budget to improve and hopefully consolidate our position in the prem.

The Scottish cup game vs Queens really was one of those games, we absolutey battered them for 120 minutes and got beat. However, the league cup at the start of the term was an absolute embarassment to be knocked out of, no doubt.

You'll not convince me that moving on from Goodwin would be a smart move. Aberdeen's crazy affair with Warnock sealed that for me. They went for a very proven manager from a different country and he could barely get a tune out of an Aberdeen team in the premiership that would likely beat our current squad fairly comfotably.

We have not limped over the line at all, this idea that we should have a league wrapped up in early March is absolute drivel. It's Old Firm levels of entitlement to believe that we should have crushed this league, it simply does not work like that.

"On the whole this season has been a slog. With some embarrassing losses. We will not be playing Arbroath/Queens Park next season and sadly he will be found out"

Perhaps he will get found out, however, every loss in the championship is going to be seen as an embarassing loss if you believe that we are entitled to go out and crush championship teams who are inevitably going to raise their game when playing the biggest club in the league, and the title favourites.

"If we can't blow teams away with the squad we have in this tinpot league"

We've a goal difference of +47, even if we had only beat Arbroath (who we did blow away this season) by a single goal each time, then our GD would still be in the mid 30s. Not bad in a league where probably 7 of the 9 other teams just sat in against us at Tannadice.

Some of that is fair enough.  The issue for me with Goodwin is that the football was painful and he didn't seem to have any plan beyond the plan in games that weren't going his way.  In the end he stumbled across a solution due to injuries.  Granted, beyond the League Cup debacle we actually started the season well.  The plan worked.  By the time we got to the third round of games and had a few injuries the plan had been sussed by any decent opposition manager (even McPake!) and we suffered.  That coupled with the capitulation at the end of last season has me doubting whether Goodwin has the ability to get the players playing the 2 or 3 different systems that he is going to need to survive in the Prem (and may need to adopt more than one system within the 90 minutes of a game to survive.  

That said, I think the revisionist view (which is forget about the abject failings and concentrate on the fact we won the league) will prevail due to the ownership situation and the lack of funds which will mean Jim starts the season as boss.  It is relevant to out of contract players as there is no point in thinking about them if the manager's position is in question (which it clearly should be).

it was painfull to watch under fox, Ross was a clueless cunt, painfull to watch under courts and mellon ball was the worst
 

Yeah we've had quite a run of it...

Canadian Arab wrote:

Finn Seemann wrote:

Some of that is fair enough.  The issue for me with Goodwin is that the football was painful and he didn't seem to have any plan beyond the plan in games that weren't going his way.  In the end he stumbled across a solution due to injuries.  Granted, beyond the League Cup debacle we actually started the season well.  The plan worked.  By the time we got to the third round of games and had a few injuries the plan had been sussed by any decent opposition manager (even McPake!) and we suffered.  That coupled with the capitulation at the end of last season has me doubting whether Goodwin has the ability to get the players playing the 2 or 3 different systems that he is going to need to survive in the Prem (and may need to adopt more than one system within the 90 minutes of a game to survive.  

That said, I think the revisionist view (which is forget about the abject failings and concentrate on the fact we won the league) will prevail due to the ownership situation and the lack of funds which will mean Jim starts the season as boss.  It is relevant to out of contract players as there is no point in thinking about them if the manager's position is in question (which it clearly should be).

I'm not a revisionist Finn. You won't find a post from me on this board or anywhere else that says I think we should get rid of Goodwin, and now I've changed my mind because we got promoted. I only had one moment of doubt about 6 weeks ago after the Dunfermline game and I said that I did not think this squad had the dig to go up. We've won every game since. I have always felt that Goodwin has done enough positive things since he came in to outweigh the negatives, the most important of which was to tell Ogren that he wanted complete control over the playing side and to ditch all the charlatans who were bleeding us dry. He got rid of Mulgrew, took a different approach with Watt (which seems to be paying off), immediately addressed the weak spine of our team, and made us harder to beat. His signings were specifically to get us promoted - that's what we were told and that's exactly what he has done. He has sidelined the players that most supporters didn't feel should be in the team. From the big earners who had no backbone and capitulated to Ross County (or ICT - don't recall) in Fox's last game, the entire club is night and day from that. Most people would agree Robbie Neilson is an established Premiership manager and it took him two seasons to get us up. And without Shankland, that might have been different. There are no guarantees bringing in someone new, and as far as I'm concerned, Goodwin has done exactly what he was asked to do by his boss. That's why he deserves the opportunity, and IMO, I think he'll do okay.

I suspect that your comments on Robbie Neilson highlight our differing views.  I'd rather stick with Goodwin than have Neilson back!!  He was seriously pish.  To be clear I am not in the get Goodwin out at any costs camp.  He has a better the devil you know quality about him.  I just don't think he has much managerial ability.  Now it may be that given we will become one of the also rans again rather than the team expected to win he might come back into his own.  I'm thinking his St Mirren experience where, arguably, he had them achieving slightly more than the sum of their parts (but again I don't think that was as a tactical genius).  I just think that his ability to actually manage the team on the park is poor.  

I'm not all doom and gloom however.  We got rid of the Charlatan and most of his cronies.  Ogren can't be that thick that he doesn't know that unless things change he's got no chance of getting any of his money back.  We've got a couple of promising youngsters.  We can get a whole load of dead wood off the books as their contracts have come to an end.  We are back where we belong.  However, we currently don't have a squad for next season (the Jambos have already done a load of business for example) never mind a squad that can stay up.  We still seem to be flogging a dead horse with many of our 'up and coming talents' who have shown that they can't cut it in a very poor Championship.  We've got several sick notes on the books.  All that is fine if good work is done over the summer.  My comment (related to the topic of out of contract players) is that you can't really have a view until you know who the manager is going to be and you also can't really have a view until you know if we have new owners/investors.  I'm hoping that Ogren sells up and I suspect if that is the case Goodwin will also likely depart as he probably isn't good enough.
 

Shedtastic wrote:

New Head of Recruitment.
Dundee United draft in new transfer chief as Michael Cairney joins from Southampton - Daily Record

 
Hope he hasn't booked any holidays over the next three months, busy period ahead.

Some good news the Jim will now get some help in this department.

Goalkeeper is the number 1 priority for me.

Last edited by CCX2 2010 (24/4/2024 5:55 pm)