Tekel Towers » Serious question

Tek · 02/2/2023 12:48 am

If we go down this season. What happens to the club, given the finances we would lose and the millions of debt we are in to Mark Ogren?

I have my own theory. But genuinely interested in your thoughts first.

motherwellarab · 02/2/2023 2:00 am

Administration possibly worse

Arabdownsouth · 02/2/2023 2:17 am

motherwellarab wrote:
Administration possibly worse

Agreed

tokyoarab · 02/2/2023 6:56 am

the accounts are not specific about the terms of the Ogren loans other than saying that they're interest free and as of June 2021 were due > 1 year, but don't disclose whether there is an enforceable repayment date. given that that's the main creditor of concern it feels like administration would be unlikely since not sure there is a particular benefit to Ogren to recover his money in going that way. sense is that Ogren sees the investment as being in Tony and his plan more than in the actual club - so if things go wrong that he would be more likely to sell up than be interested in trying to restructure. given the increase in inflation and interest rates the risk free nature of the loans will be hurting him more than when he entered into them too.

they announced in November 2022 that we made an accounting profit of 600k in the year to June 2022 (off the back of revenue increasing from 3.8m in 2021 to 8.5m in 2022) - which hopefully means that at least there is no significant increase in the loan to Ogren for 2022 and therefore the loan would remain at around 10.6m on an undiscounted basis.

net liabilities (inclusive of the Ogren loan) at June 21 - were 5.5m. assuming the market value of the stadium land is higher than the accounting value (based on land value must be at least 10m?), and less the 3m of the Souttar money then we're certainly not miles away from being investable purely on an assets basis - assuming Ogren would be satisfied with his loans being repaid and assuming we're still in the prem. with relegation our revenue drops back down to below 4m again and the list of suitors willing to subsidise/finance a promotion campaign to the tune of about 3m per year isn't likely to be overly long.. so does Ogren sell and accept a loss on his investment or first try to recover what he can from the club's assets?

Stillliving · 02/2/2023 7:16 am

It's not worth wasting any time thinking/speculating about. Put your energies into supporting the team and maybe come back to it in may

Danzaa · 02/2/2023 7:40 am

TEK, I admire your optimism by saying 'if we go down'
Here's where I am
Fox is a puppet, what he does, says and who he plays is dictated by others. The line ups, formations, game management and post match interviews, I'm sick of seeing it. Fox is a waste of space but fits the model of being a yes man.
Keeper debacles, lack of leadership, a midget, lightweight midfield and a striker who can't score regularly. We've seen this repeated over last few years. This year we have added into the mix a defence none of us rate and a striker that rarely hits the target never mind score.
This transfer window should have put that right. It didn't and there is the final nail.

The answer really lies with Ogren, he cannot ask anymore from the fans who bought into him and backed his investment.
He has to look elsewhere and facts are that right now, every team in the bottom 6 is glad that Utd are in this league.
All big neon flashing arrows point at the person responsible which is Tony.
If he continues to care more about Tony than the club, we go down, Ogren admits his experiment has now failed, he sells up and grabs whatever dollar he can, probably enticing future owners with a reasonable price in affordable chunks over a suitable period.
Looking at all thats happened since Ross got sacked, I personally think this decision was made the day after, and the process began the moment they chose Fox.
Slowly the smoke is beginning to clear and now everyone but the blind or deluded, can all see.

I will always support Utd and we will rebuild, it is painful especially after comments from Tony himself at the start of this season

https://www.dundeeunitedfc.co.uk/news/7324/TONY-ASGHAR-INTERVIEW-SPORTING-DIRECTOR-OUTLINES-HIS-AMBITIOUS-VISION-FOR-THE-CLUB.html

He even got the last few sentences wrong, its not just certain sections of our support, most other teams and the media are saying this

It's time up for Tony, whether Ogren is committed to the club the fans and puts it right, time will tell.
See you on the other side.

Last edited by Danzaa (02/2/2023 7:43 am)

UniDundee · 02/2/2023 7:59 am

I haven't posted in a long time, mainly due to work (In the Netherlands), and I'll be brutally honest I can't hide my dismay at how the Club is being run, and I've said that numerous times here before.

I'm glad more supporters are more aware of how badly run we are and now want change. The first-team coach/manager position cannot be fixed until changes are made above him. We can certainly talk the talk but that is just smoke... Fulham link up, South American relationships, the best academy in the world, elite coaches, International scout department etc...

Mark Ogren does he want out? Some rumours suggest he does, with Club up for sale. These claims could be backed up by the lack of funds in January, or is he more conservative in his financial backing now? You could argue further, that most Scottish clubs are up for sale if the right price comes along.

TA, apparently, as many have said, has an agency that means every utd employee is controlled by this apparent agency & his agency get money on every employee, is that true or not? There must be a way we can prove that. These claims would provide food for thought regarding the number of staff we have at United now since TA has been in control.

To me, and hence the reason I haven't been to games or posted is that Dundee United is seen as money making machine for certain individuals. That disgusts me.

What happens if we get relegated, or if Tony/Ogren walks......Who knows.
I just don't like how the Club is being run, and I haven't for a very long time (see previous posts).

Would we go into administration? If we fail to pay creditors (HMRC, etc.), they could produce a winding-up order, like any business. Could we go into administration via the loans to MO, highly unlikely imo. However, MO does have a history of buying and selling sports clubs.
We have been reliant on the backing of MO, which produces just under £11m debt to him, which he wants back, hence the reason they are loans.
How does he get this money back? Well, the sell-on % from HS sale, would be a start. The Club also needs funds too.....It now depends on who is first in the queue, MO or the Club.

Last edited by UniDundee (02/2/2023 8:07 am)

Finn Seemann · 02/2/2023 8:05 am

I'm now firmly of the view that whatever is needed to get us shot of the Fat Controller and ASAP is the most important thing. If relegation is what it takes for Ogren to wake up or piss off, bring it on. If we survive this year then we'll just get more of the same utter pish next season.

Asghar out.

Lancashire-Arab · 02/2/2023 11:21 am

I doubt MO would be the one to put us into administration as he is who the debt is owed to and would probably get a lot less than he is owed back from the clubs administrators. I am sure that someone would come in and buy us.

I have always tried to stay away from the Asghar conversation but I am finding myself increasingly frustrated and feel I have to vent on this topic. Firstly and it may be a question for MO, what is our CEO responsible for? In most organisations the CEO is top of the tree but it seems to be the sporting director, also why do we need a sporting director and a CEO seems like a very heavy management structure for a business with turnover at out level and I would suspect as a minimum they cost us £0.5m per year (salary, benefits, bonuses, NI contributions and pension contributions).

The point i want to make about TA that seems to never get mentioned is this is his first role as a sporting director/ director of football, before this he had no experience in working for a football club at all and all of this off the back of taking a degree course in sports directorship. A lot of what i see is him putting some of the book theory into practice, rebranding things in an attempt to change the mindset e.g. the training ground becomes the high performance centre. A lot of what he is doing he has no experience of for the majority of his working life he worked in the police. And for those who will cite his experience as an agent as useful, he left the police in 2012 and set up his own agencies in 2015 dissolved up all of his agency companies. How much experience did he really as an agent max 7 years if he worked for another company before he set up his own, if he only started when he set up on his own then it has been 4 years as an agent coming from zero background in football. So I would challenge anyone who says he brings all of these contacts as an agent, does he really have any more contacts than someone who played the sport or has worked as a coach? Also looking at companies house, his most successful business looks like it was a sports travel agency, all data is in the public domain ( https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/officers/gIeHG0QDD3-9euGZS-_vKSMiNmw/appointments )

As I see it we have an academy structure where we have a whole load of coaches and no one seems to know who is responsible for what and who reports to whom and if something does not deliver which person is held accountable - in any organisation this is key to delivery.

And while on the subject I question the appointment of our CEO, if you look back far enough then you realise he worked for TA at one of his agencies and since then has held a number of short roles. I am not sure what qualified him as a CEO, 3 months as head of operations for the SPFL, 1 month as a team liaison for UEFA, 18 months as head of operations for the SFA - none of his experience gives me comfort of his suitability for the club. And while i am on my jobs for the boy rant, does anyone know who Roberto Cerdán Bericat is he has been an external consultant for us since 2019 and also surprisingly worked for TA at his agency - is this our Ugandan talent guy and how much have we paid him since 2019? ( https://www.linkedin.com/in/roberto-cerd%C3%A1n-bericat-487b2931/ )

What I am really saying with the above is I feel we are no more than a vehicle for one persons ideas who may move on if things all go wrong or is using us to attempt to get a bigger job elsewhere. As a personality I feel that he is one of many that I have seen a lot of in business who get ahead, these individuals tend to have the utmost belief in what they do is brilliant even though the evidence is to the contrary. Take last season while we were all happy with 4th place some realise that we were lucky as all of the teams below us seemed to all drop points when we did, but he celebrated like we were a clear 4th place. I also question what really qualifies him to be a sporting director other than obtaining a qualification, he has no experience in this field but due to a connect with MO he has ascended to a senior position very quickly, with not much more experience than any one of us fans.

sorry for going on for too long but as a fan I am worried about the club and what relegation will do to us and now have concerns about the capability of the clubs leadership, especially off the back of our January business.

Finn Seemann · 02/2/2023 12:18 pm

Lancashire-Arab wrote:
I doubt MO would be the one to put us into administration as he is who the debt is owed to and would probably get a lot less than he is owed back from the clubs administrators. I am sure that someone would come in and buy us.

I have always tried to stay away from the Asghar conversation but I am finding myself increasingly frustrated and feel I have to vent on this topic. Firstly and it may be a question for MO, what is our CEO responsible for? In most organisations the CEO is top of the tree but it seems to be the sporting director, also why do we need a sporting director and a CEO seems like a very heavy management structure for a business with turnover at out level and I would suspect as a minimum they cost us £0.5m per year (salary, benefits, bonuses, NI contributions and pension contributions).

The point i want to make about TA that seems to never get mentioned is this is his first role as a sporting director/ director of football, before this he had no experience in working for a football club at all and all of this off the back of taking a degree course in sports directorship. A lot of what i see is him putting some of the book theory into practice, rebranding things in an attempt to change the mindset e.g. the training ground becomes the high performance centre. A lot of what he is doing he has no experience of for the majority of his working life he worked in the police. And for those who will cite his experience as an agent as useful, he left the police in 2012 and set up his own agencies in 2015 dissolved up all of his agency companies. How much experience did he really as an agent max 7 years if he worked for another company before he set up his own, if he only started when he set up on his own then it has been 4 years as an agent coming from zero background in football. So I would challenge anyone who says he brings all of these contacts as an agent, does he really have any more contacts than someone who played the sport or has worked as a coach? Also looking at companies house, his most successful business looks like it was a sports travel agency, all data is in the public domain ( https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/officers/gIeHG0QDD3-9euGZS-_vKSMiNmw/appointments )

As I see it we have an academy structure where we have a whole load of coaches and no one seems to know who is responsible for what and who reports to whom and if something does not deliver which person is held accountable - in any organisation this is key to delivery.

And while on the subject I question the appointment of our CEO, if you look back far enough then you realise he worked for TA at one of his agencies and since then has held a number of short roles. I am not sure what qualified him as a CEO, 3 months as head of operations for the SPFL, 1 month as a team liaison for UEFA, 18 months as head of operations for the SFA - none of his experience gives me comfort of his suitability for the club. And while i am on my jobs for the boy rant, does anyone know who Roberto Cerdán Bericat is he has been an external consultant for us since 2019 and also surprisingly worked for TA at his agency - is this our Ugandan talent guy and how much have we paid him since 2019? ( https://www.linkedin.com/in/roberto-cerd%C3%A1n-bericat-487b2931/ )

What I am really saying with the above is I feel we are no more than a vehicle for one persons ideas who may move on if things all go wrong or is using us to attempt to get a bigger job elsewhere. As a personality I feel that he is one of many that I have seen a lot of in business who get ahead, these individuals tend to have the utmost belief in what they do is brilliant even though the evidence is to the contrary. Take last season while we were all happy with 4th place some realise that we were lucky as all of the teams below us seemed to all drop points when we did, but he celebrated like we were a clear 4th place. I also question what really qualifies him to be a sporting director other than obtaining a qualification, he has no experience in this field but due to a connect with MO he has ascended to a senior position very quickly, with not much more experience than any one of us fans.

sorry for going on for too long but as a fan I am worried about the club and what relegation will do to us and now have concerns about the capability of the clubs leadership, especially off the back of our January business.

This is what I have been going on about for ages. It's all the Emperor's new clothes. He knows no more about what he is doing than any of us with half a brain and a bit of paper from some Uni or other that says you paid the fees and turned up. Fat Tone is definitely not the messiah.

Asghar out.

Finn Seemann · 02/2/2023 6:50 pm

CA - your bang on that it is depressing!

I actually thought that we were on to something at Easter Road. Team looked up for it and, bar Fox's inability to shore things up for a win (and the skill of a certain Nisbet), we looked comfortable. An uninspiring 2-0 loss to Celtic (but almost forgivable). Followed up by the meekest of meek capitulations to our weakest rivals - depressing, but truth be told we've always been shit at Rugby Park.

What is ultra depressing is another window passing without an attempt to plug the glaring gaps in the team. No keeper to either back up or replace the dodgy Aussie (remember we gave St Mirren Carson), an untested laddie to potentially fill the right sided problem in defence, no mention at all about finding a defensive midfielder (in fact we seemed to want to fill the Fuchs gap with Fuchs which was clearly a non-starter) and a complete failure to find a striker of any credibility that can complete 90 minutes.

What is unforgivable is to leave us with such a threadbare squad. There is nothing on the bench if we get any injuries up front (how we let Clark and Watt go in quick succession without a replacement is astounding). The defence remains woeful and we are left with a midfield which Fox can't seem to play in the right positions. Levitt and McGrath are decent players who have both looked awful in recent weeks. When you'd rather have Harkes on the park that those two you know something is wrong!

Asghar needs to go now. I love Dundee United and I genuinely fear for us. It's not just relegation. It can't just be sorted by bringing in a Craig Levein. We have allowed the charlatan to control every aspect of our club, top to bottom. No wonder we couldn't secure any decent players in the window. If I was a player there is no way I'd come and join that shitshow. Feel for the young Huddersfield boy - he must have been sitting at Rugby Park thinking - so they're pish and now we are putting on an old crock, a school boy and Finnish lad who can run...

Shakey Isles Arab · 02/2/2023 9:15 pm

All good well thought out posts.

Let me me simplistic: Ogren needs to wake up, smell the roses and go through the set up like a shower of shit.
Now.
How long has this hear no evil, speak no evil, see no evil, three wise monkeys situation gone on.

To persist in saying, missed a penalty here, last minute goal there, Ok to lose to Celtic, we don't have a good record against - Killie (ffs !!). If, if, if, if.
- That smacks of hard done by, year in year out woe stories we hear about teams bound for diddy div - excuses - bode for nothing but relegation.

But, back to the original question, what would relegation do to us ? I don't know, don't have the knowledge for figures and I don't know Ogren's nett worth, notwithstanding that however (and I'm mebbe naive here) but I feel he's got the honesty to stand by us in the time of his clusterfuck.

It does worry me he's been notable by his absence lately ?

#Ashgar out
#Ogren finger out

Last edited by Shakey Isles Arab (02/2/2023 9:52 pm)

Rick Dagless · 02/2/2023 9:29 pm

I've seen some fans suggest that going down would be a good thing because we could clear out the deadwood in the squad and start over. They're living in a Match of the Day inspired dreamland where relegated teams down south can afford to do that given the stupid sums of money in the game down there.

We'd clear out the majority of the squad yes. But we don't have the money to rebuild an entire squad over one summer. Certainly the recruitment team at Tannadice don't fill me with any confidence to get in a good calibre of signings or build a squad that can challenge for the title.

Much like last time if we go down, there's no way I see us coming straight back up, which financially would be a disaster for the club.

One thing that seems inevitable is that Mulgrew will be our next Head Coach whenever Fox walks or is pushed out the door

Danzaa · 03/2/2023 7:01 am

Ogren needs to act now to stop any bad blood.
There really is only one outcome that would be acceptable and thats to sack the Sporting Director immediately.

Asghar out asap

Last edited by Danzaa (03/2/2023 7:01 am)

UniDundee · 03/2/2023 8:00 am

Excellent points, but one that stands out, why is our Sporting director running the Club? Why is that not the CEO?

We have so many people in positions of power; who is the leader of the Club?
We have the following;

Chairman
CEO, SD, CFO, Operations Manager - the list goes on!

Finn Seemann · 03/2/2023 9:44 am

UniDundee wrote:
Excellent points, but one that stands out, why is our Sporting director running the Club? Why is that not the CEO?

We have so many people in positions of power; who is the leader of the Club?
We have the following;

Chairman
CEO, SD, CFO, Operations Manager - the list goes on!

Indeed. Times have moved on, but Jim McLean covered most of those and manager of the team. If I was being charitable, I'd say that we are trying to impose a structure for a bigger club on our medium sized club, but to be honest its just the Fat Controller avoiding hard work and having someone else to blame.

Asghar Out

Danzaa · 20/2/2023 7:21 am

It's hard to believe that since this thread started, matters have gotten worse, but they have.
It's time to accept that the beloved old car Ogren bought and rides in the back of is falling apart. With Tony as chauffeur a crash is inevitable.
I am unfortunately now firmly in the camp of Ogren being the problem, we can blame the players who should be doing more even just for pride, we can blame Fox but lets be honest, he's the yes man simply performing at a level that his inexperience allows.
The squad and backroom staff were assembled by Tony, is he to blame? Not really, he is culpable of sheer incompetence and fobbing all off with clichés.
Nope the real culprit is Ogren, it's clear everyone follows his script, word for word. He's come up with some fantasy where he would restore this car to its former glory. After initially getting the car roadworthy, his ride was comfortable.
It's now approaching M O.T time, we had hoped Ogren would love it, get it fully maintained and it would fly through. We were promised that we would see this car back to its best and hear it roar.
The truth is he has no interest in caring for the car at all. To me it's clear he's in the process of doing what he's always done when his projects/ experiments don't give him the glory and the bucks quickly. He looks to be selling the parts he can, even the ones brought in recently that have hardly done any miles.
As for what's going to be left on the drive for us to look at? shitty shitty bang bang comes to mind.
Over the top? Dramatic? It's my take on things, but for sure Ogren has to act positively and decisively very soon or be viewed as a fraud and a greedy yank liar. I could think of a few 'C' words to call him, coward being one, but I will be polite and summarise with a few others, it's his choice, it's his conscious, it might even be his car, but its our club.

We don't want charity, we want it taken care of, NOW, and not by any of the current incompetent clowns.

Last edited by Danzaa (20/2/2023 8:26 am)

UniDundee · 20/2/2023 7:33 am

How many sport clubs has Ogren bought before us? And what happened to them once he sold them?

Edit to add:

He owned Mankato Moondogs for 5 years
He sold the Sioux Falls canaries as he states it should be in local ownership in 2021.
He sold his convenience stores, all 13 in 2018 & he sold all five of his sites and 70 oil supply contracts. So he is no longer in the oil and gas business.
According to an interview in 2018, he wants to concentrate on the sports club business.

Last edited by UniDundee (20/2/2023 7:49 am)

Danzaa · 20/2/2023 8:13 am

Yup, a little research shows he buys clubs, makes promises to lifelong supporters, takes a back seat and sells when he gets bored or perhaps when he feels the heat.

Basically a greedy chunt who likes the Glory,Dollars and quits when Plan A doesn't work.

AlwaysUnited · 20/2/2023 10:43 am

We can say many things about how the season has gone, but Mark Ogren is not greedy and he is not looking to asset strip United.

He's doing the best he can and has well and truly put his money where is mouth is. Without Mark Ogren there might not have been a Dundee United anymore.

Danzaa · 20/2/2023 10:54 am

We are bottom, because Tony has invested the money poorly, his mouth says stick together and believe.
With Tony we won't have a Dundee United anymore and that's Ogren's fault
I'll stick with my opinion until hard evidence proves otherwise

Shakey Isles Arab · 20/2/2023 10:55 am

I'm hunting for rusty Stanley blades.
We're in freefall and Ogren sits fiddling while all tumbles down.
Ashgar will stay.
Fox inept schtoomer that he is if you look it his first interviews knew he couldnae handle will carry the can.
If we get lucky we get someone in who can get a fuck up players, because it's no really hard - all they need is to be a bit braver on ball and get in about opponent.
Worst case we go down. If we do we're no coming up in a hurry.

... Still cannae find Stanley Blades

Shedtastic · 20/2/2023 11:23 am

AlwaysUnited wrote:
We can say many things about how the season has gone, but Mark Ogren is not greedy and he is not looking to asset strip United.

He's doing the best he can and has well and truly put his money where is mouth is. Without Mark Ogren there might not have been a Dundee United anymore.

How can you say things like that?
Do you personally know the owner?
Are you privy to his business ideas?
I would guess the answers to those questions is no, so why do you post this stuff?

Rick Dagless · 20/2/2023 11:45 am

Even if we stay up, the squad needs significant investment. I'm now doubtful that the chairman will provide the necessary backing to do that.

Tek · 25/5/2023 1:37 am

AlwaysUnited wrote:
We can say many things about how the season has gone, but Mark Ogren is not greedy and he is not looking to asset strip United.

He's doing the best he can and has well and truly put his money where is mouth is. Without Mark Ogren there might not have been a Dundee United anymore.

Ignoring what this absolute moron has written above.

What happens now?