Tekel Towers » R&D Tax Claim

Macbonzo · 06/8/2025 11:58 am

Firstly, I apologise for raising this topic on the eve of a great European occasion, but, I think it is important.

I note the club’s statement attempting to assure supporters that (a) this will have no impact of the running of the club, and (b) all the individuals who were involved have since left. The problem remains HMRC will want their money back. Irrespective of who signed what and who should have know this or that, the beneficiary of the fraud was Dundee United Football Club. As such HMRC will seek compensation from the club.

Of course, signing a document purporting to be someone else is extremely serious however, none of those involved were attempting to benefit financially themselves. The most likely outcome is a ban of holding a directorship of a limited company.

Being August (journalists need stories), I fear there will be some sort of investigative programme. Quite frankly the individuals involved and their “qualifications” will make it compulsive viewing, but, I suspect the club will have to pay back at least £500,000

Finn Seemann · 06/8/2025 1:49 pm

This one is on Ogren. Plenty folk telling him (if he'd have listened) that the Fat Controller was taking him for a ride. He's been lucky that the integration away from Asghar has actually been fairly smooth. I'm ok if he's seeking the best deal he can get out of HMRC, but he needs to pay his taxes and put it down to experience (of which I hope he is learning from). He's certainly not getting an exit with that issue unresolved.

Slotbadger · 06/8/2025 2:15 pm

Apparently hibs and rangers also implicated. Considering all the nonsense about foreign players and this - it does seem that a few in the press don’t like United.

In any case - is worrying. We can say it’s on Ogren, and it is. But ultimately, if we have to pay, he will just add it onto the debt or cut the budget.

Last edited by Slotbadger (06/8/2025 3:04 pm)

Arab99 · 06/8/2025 2:50 pm

.

Last edited by Arab99 (06/8/2025 2:56 pm)

redford_must_score · 06/8/2025 3:28 pm

Finn Seemann wrote:
This one is on Ogren. Plenty folk telling him (if he'd have listened) that the Fat Controller was taking him for a ride. He's been lucky that the integration away from Asghar has actually been fairly smooth. I'm ok if he's seeking the best deal he can get out of HMRC, but he needs to pay his taxes and put it down to experience (of which I hope he is learning from). He's certainly not getting an exit with that issue unresolved.

It does make you wonder if Scott or Mark Ogren knew about this and were reassured that everything was fine. Or if they didn't know about it because of being too hands off and assuming that the Fat Controller was a football management expert.

It also makes you wonder if there might be any other nasty surprises yet to emerge.

The West Coast media will probably tread carefully on this given Hibs, Rangers, Chelsea and Forest also among the clubs who took advantage of it. I would imagine any repayment might be negotiated as payable in instalments.
Derek Bond has come over all Bill Clinton and basically claiming his signature or a template of it was used without his permission.
Eh excuse me Derek, you were the Finance Director, correct?

Not good is it.

Last edited by redford_must_score (06/8/2025 4:12 pm)

Arabdownsouth · 06/8/2025 4:04 pm

redford_must_score wrote:
Finn Seemann wrote:
This one is on Ogren. Plenty folk telling him (if he'd have listened) that the Fat Controller was taking him for a ride. He's been lucky that the integration away from Asghar has actually been fairly smooth. I'm ok if he's seeking the best deal he can get out of HMRC, but he needs to pay his taxes and put it down to experience (of which I hope he is learning from). He's certainly not getting an exit with that issue unresolved.

It does make you wonder if Scott or Mark Ogren knew about this and were reassured that everything was fine. Or if they didn't know about it because of being too hands off and assuming that the Fat Controller was a football management expert.

It also makes you wonder if there might be any other nasty surprises yet to emerge.

The West Coast media will probably tread carefully on this given Hibs, Rangers, Chelsea and Forest also among the clubs who took advantage of it. I would imagine any repayment might be negotiated as payable in instalments.
Derek Bond has come over all Bill Clinton and basically claiming his signature or a template of it was used without his permission.
Eh excuse me David, you were the Finance Director, correct?

Not good is it.

Is it Derek, David or James? 😋

redford_must_score · 06/8/2025 4:12 pm

Arabdownsouth wrote:
redford_must_score wrote:
Finn Seemann wrote:
This one is on Ogren. Plenty folk telling him (if he'd have listened) that the Fat Controller was taking him for a ride. He's been lucky that the integration away from Asghar has actually been fairly smooth. I'm ok if he's seeking the best deal he can get out of HMRC, but he needs to pay his taxes and put it down to experience (of which I hope he is learning from). He's certainly not getting an exit with that issue unresolved.

It does make you wonder if Scott or Mark Ogren knew about this and were reassured that everything was fine. Or if they didn't know about it because of being too hands off and assuming that the Fat Controller was a football management expert.

It also makes you wonder if there might be any other nasty surprises yet to emerge.

The West Coast media will probably tread carefully on this given Hibs, Rangers, Chelsea and Forest also among the clubs who took advantage of it. I would imagine any repayment might be negotiated as payable in instalments.
Derek Bond has come over all Bill Clinton and basically claiming his signature or a template of it was used without his permission.
Eh excuse me David, you were the Finance Director, correct?

Not good is it.

Is it Derek, David or James? 😋

Brooke

Arabdownsouth · 06/8/2025 4:25 pm

redford_must_score wrote:
Arabdownsouth wrote:
redford_must_score wrote:

It does make you wonder if Scott or Mark Ogren knew about this and were reassured that everything was fine. Or if they didn't know about it because of being too hands off and assuming that the Fat Controller was a football management expert.

It also makes you wonder if there might be any other nasty surprises yet to emerge.

The West Coast media will probably tread carefully on this given Hibs, Rangers, Chelsea and Forest also among the clubs who took advantage of it. I would imagine any repayment might be negotiated as payable in instalments.
Derek Bond has come over all Bill Clinton and basically claiming his signature or a template of it was used without his permission.
Eh excuse me David, you were the Finance Director, correct?

Not good is it.

Is it Derek, David or James? 😋

Brooke

🤣🤣

Finn Seemann · 06/8/2025 4:31 pm

redford_must_score wrote:
Finn Seemann wrote:
This one is on Ogren. Plenty folk telling him (if he'd have listened) that the Fat Controller was taking him for a ride. He's been lucky that the integration away from Asghar has actually been fairly smooth. I'm ok if he's seeking the best deal he can get out of HMRC, but he needs to pay his taxes and put it down to experience (of which I hope he is learning from). He's certainly not getting an exit with that issue unresolved.

It does make you wonder if Scott or Mark Ogren knew about this and were reassured that everything was fine. Or if they didn't know about it because of being too hands off and assuming that the Fat Controller was a football management expert.

It also makes you wonder if there might be any other nasty surprises yet to emerge.

The West Coast media will probably tread carefully on this given Hibs, Rangers, Chelsea and Forest also among the clubs who took advantage of it. I would imagine any repayment might be negotiated as payable in instalments.
Derek Bond has come over all Bill Clinton and basically claiming his signature or a template of it was used without his permission.
Eh excuse me Derek, you were the Finance Director, correct?

Not good is it.

Indeed. He may not have signed it, but he has to have known about it. If not, not exactly good PR for his accountancy business...

David_Blunkett · 06/8/2025 5:36 pm

When this news first broke, It was said the company who did the R&D on our behalf were liable for a percentage of any costs/kickback coming from any action or similar.

600k seems to be the figure mentioned not sure if this is the total amount of the amount United are liable for.

Ogren can add it to the debt he's never getting back, or convert debt to shares or something.

Last edited by David_Blunkett (06/8/2025 5:50 pm)

Jims Beard · 06/8/2025 6:07 pm

Cant wait for the day our club stops being negativley affected by actions made during ashgars time at the club. Finally got rid of certain big earners signed under his watch now this

Tek · 06/8/2025 10:30 pm

Jims Beard wrote:
Cant wait for the day our club stops being negativley affected by actions made during ashgars time at the club. Finally got rid of certain big earners signed under his watch now this

The man who signs everything off is still in charge.

I've said it many times, he's either grossly naive or himself a bit of a Cowboy.

The failed Gold club 'Ponzi Scheme' was a massive red flag for me regards Mr Ogren.

I do of course believe Tony Asghar was a complete confidence trickster, but 'Birds of a Feather flock together' is an old saying with a strong basis in truth.

Jims Beard · 10/8/2025 9:27 am

Tek wrote:
Jims Beard wrote:
Cant wait for the day our club stops being negativley affected by actions made during ashgars time at the club. Finally got rid of certain big earners signed under his watch now this
The man who signs everything off is still in charge.

I've said it many times, he's either grossly naive or himself a bit of a Cowboy.

The failed Gold club 'Ponzi Scheme' was a massive red flag for me regards Mr Ogren.

I do of course believe Tony Asghar was a complete confidence trickster, but 'Birds of a Feather flock together' is an old saying with a strong basis in truth.

Interesting point tek, what one do you think it is? I guess i like to give ogren the benefit of the doubt purely on the basis i dont to admit our club is run by a shyster

Macbonzo · 11/8/2025 12:36 pm

Jims Beard wrote:
Tek wrote:
Jims Beard wrote:
Cant wait for the day our club stops being negativley affected by actions made during ashgars time at the club. Finally got rid of certain big earners signed under his watch now this
The man who signs everything off is still in charge.

I've said it many times, he's either grossly naive or himself a bit of a Cowboy.

The failed Gold club 'Ponzi Scheme' was a massive red flag for me regards Mr Ogren.

I do of course believe Tony Asghar was a complete confidence trickster, but 'Birds of a Feather flock together' is an old saying with a strong basis in truth.

Interesting point tek, what one do you think it is? I guess i like to give ogren the benefit of the doubt purely on the basis i dont to admit our club is run by a shyster

Can’t speak for Tek, but, buying a Scottish football club from a middleman, having done little or no due diligence then entrusting the middleman to run the club is extremely naive.

Apart from the obvious conflict of interests, did he not ask the question why Mike Martin (HSBC executive) wanted shot of the controlling interest, so rapidly?

He has spent £13m, so I wouldn’t say he’s a “confidence trickster” rather someone trying to exit a very poor investment at all costs.

Jims Beard · 14/8/2025 11:12 am

Have to agree with the extremely naive bit, your average joe knows scottish clubs rarely make a profit and breaking even is regarded as successful in a business sense. I guess thats why martin wanted out

Tangy · 14/8/2025 12:47 pm

Do we actually know if ogres is here to make a profit off the annual income?

So many Americans involved in scottish football now and they can't all be naive.

What if he just wants the club to pay for itself (and start to pay off the debt).

For ogres to make a profit, he needed to invest in the team early. Grow the team = better performances = more income = higher value of the asset ie club. That plan is win win really - we get a good team, he gets his loans back and an asset to sell for more money. The flaw in the whole plan was that we got worse performances, rather than better

Jims Beard · 14/8/2025 6:35 pm

Tangy wrote:
Do we actually know if ogres is here to make a profit off the annual income?

So many Americans involved in scottish football now and they can't all be naive.

What if he just wants the club to pay for itself (and start to pay off the debt).

For ogres to make a profit, he needed to invest in the team early. Grow the team = better performances = more income = higher value of the asset ie club. That plan is win win really - we get a good team, he gets his loans back and an asset to sell for more money. The flaw in the whole plan was that we got worse performances, rather than better

I seem to recall ogren being quite open about looking to make money out of united when he first bought us

My guess is asghar sold him united being one of the bigger scottish clubs available at a relativley cheap price due to being in the championship, who only a few years earlier were selling players regularly for big money, robertson, gauld, the tim two, ciftci etc