Foo Kin Twat wrote:

TheShed wrote:

I think its a bit unfair to say that folk "shooting their mouth off" are suggesting to anyone that they're a bigger fan than anyone else. I'd also suggest that the vast majority of those your referring to have also looked at both sides of the equation.

People will form different opinions from what they've seen/heard and everyone reacts in different ways.

As far as Southern goes, I agree with u he's only doing what he's told, but while he's doing that, someone else is taking a bigger wage for telling him what to do and what else exactly?

Nothing against Southern, but he's an expenditure the club didn't need.

The Shed - You probably get this, but many obviously don't.  Dundee United is a PRIVATE LIMITED COMPANY owned by (the) Thompson (Family) and stripping it barely back, we are merely Customers albeit customers with an emotional interest!!!  If Dundee United were doing house conversions and we were customers, we would have no say in how the business was run, nor who the owner paid to run the business the way the owner wanted the business run, nor to what he earned for being the owner of that roofing business.

I deal with peoples debt every day of my life and try to stop them losing their roofs over their heads, so I know a dangerous amount about debt and debt management and repayment etc.  Here's a back of a fag packet idea of what Dundee United is run on.  Have a think about it and get back to me with how you would allocate that as a budget if you were running Dundee United?  In fact I would urge EVERYONE to have a go (but I winna haud my breath).

Don't get me wrong, the Chairman has questions to answer, but these will only be formulated once the next set of accounts are published.  And of course as Dundee United are a PRIVATE LIMITED COMPANY, the owner can limit what gets into the public domain.  Like everyone else, I will have plenty questions to ask, as the answers will determine whether I trust him with my hard earned cash in advance of a probable year in the Championship.

Anyway for this season:

£600,000 for being a Premier League Team (TV Money) - which will be £60,000 next season
£1.5M (5,000 season tickets at £300 each) - which will be nothing like that next season either
And you can choose an amount of other realistic income, but justify it please


Then allocate your break even budget to the following general categories:

Playing Staff and how many players you deem we need
Coaching/Management
Non Playing Staff
Chairman and BoD
Accommodation/Travel
Stadium Upkeep
Training Facilities

I look forward to seeing everyone's efforts...........

 
I run a business bud, I know how to form a p&l account and forecast future expectations so I'll have a look and get back to u on this. Just out of surgery tho, so let me wake up a bit first, lol.

Foo Kin Twat wrote:

DontOfferMeThat wrote:

It's a fair point regarding the Private Company status. However football fans especially season ticket holders are more akin to shareholders. We're exceptionally unlikely to go another provider of football entertainment irrespective of the competing price or the quality of the alternative product. So does that not entitle us to a bit more information than available to the roofers customers. 
Although I do get your point. 
 

And I balance it by saying exactly that.  We are Shareholders but only with an emotional dividend.

Please try my budget challenge DOMT, as it's virtually impossible, bearing in mind the expectation level is Top 6 AND to get to National Cup Finals, eg 20 players on a grand a week swallows up £1,040,000 or half your budget for starters!!!  I'll bet there will not be (m)any takers on the challenge!!!
 

 
FKT - you've REALLY given a LOAD to think on throughout this thread.  Got me thinking about what my new boss did the other day.  He's an ex Spurs season ticket holder who was high up in a major bank for over 30 years.  He worked out the ticket revenue for Spurs and calculated that it pays for 4 players.  Now EPL and TV money obviously fills a lad more. United's crowds MIGHT just about sustain a team that could cope with challenging in the First Division.  BUT nothing else from the list you've given.  There would have to be a fair few development squaders in there if to spin out retaining or attracting any experienced players. Could it keep us going if we were down for 2 seasons?  Cannae see it.

We'd need a really creative (I mean that positively) financial visionary steering us. 

Just a thought.

Foo Kin Twat wrote:

I deal with peoples debt every day of my life and try to stop them losing their roofs over their heads, so I know a dangerous amount about debt and debt management and repayment etc.  Here's a back of a fag packet idea of what Dundee United is run on.  Have a think about it and get back to me with how you would allocate that as a budget if you were running Dundee United?  In fact I would urge EVERYONE to have a go (but I winna haud my breath).

Don't get me wrong, the Chairman has questions to answer, but these will only be formulated once the next set of accounts are published.  And of course as Dundee United are a PRIVATE LIMITED COMPANY, the owner can limit what gets into the public domain.  Like everyone else, I will have plenty questions to ask, as the answers will determine whether I trust him with my hard earned cash in advance of a probable year in the Championship.

Anyway for this season:

£600,000 for being a Premier League Team (TV Money) - which will be £60,000 next season
£1.5M (5,000 season tickets at £300 each) - which will be nothing like that next season either
And you can choose an amount of other realistic income, but justify it please


Then allocate your break even budget to the following general categories:

Playing Staff and how many players you deem we need
Coaching/Management
Non Playing Staff
Chairman and BoD
Accommodation/Travel
Stadium Upkeep
Training Facilities

I look forward to seeing everyone's efforts...........

 
One thing you need to do Fook is to factor in a parachute payment of approx £300k in season one to the twelfth placed club.

Last edited by scarpia (19/2/2016 10:24 pm)

Foo Kin Twat wrote:

Goodie Conway 2 wrote:

Did FKT not meet him and post a summary of that conversation including what his role entails?

I did indeed, but I'd hate to get in the road of an angry baying mob and their intended victim(s).
 
I've been watching Dundee United in 5 decades now and it's been unbelievable highs and unbelievable heartbreak mixed in with a lot of humour and decency.  But what I am witnessing now from some in our support, is more akin to what I would expect from The Rangers Supporters Trust; or Sons of Struth than Dundee United.

Some of the stuff I have seen on social media from so called United fans could end up in the criminal courts.  As above, there are only 2 teams in Scotland I expect that from and we are not one of them!  These people need to get over themselves and their own perceived self importance, as running a wee provincial Scottish futba club is an almost impossible task, especially one with 5,000 season ticket holders (in good times) operating in an environment where 3 others have 2 or 3 times us; and 2 more again have 7 or 8 times us!

Some seem to think coz they shout the same thing over and over and over and over louder than anyone else it somehow becomes FACT.  And that they are hurting more than the likes of me, or they are a bigger fan of the Club than me, coz I take a step back and look at the bigger picture and don't go shooting my mouth off having looked at both sides of an equation.

My understanding of the original topic is pretty much bits and pieces of the above.  He is GM.  He's been here a little more than a year.  He did a similar job at Hearts for a number of years.  He was brought in by the Chairman to manage the day to day running of the Football Club (presumably whilst he - ahem - researched other business opportunities); and he'll get a wage in line with that level of responsibility.  I'd have thought that if/when we are relegated, his position would be one of the first under review for sure.

But my understanding of his role is that he would be responsible for the day to day running of the Football Club and that he would answer to the Chairman and the BoD.  He would not be making unilateral decisions, more he would execute the express wishes of the Chairman and the BoD as to what they wanted done.  Which brings me to my next part, which is the, "have you seen what happened to Hearts when he was there?" bit.  Well he would have been doing what Romanov told him to do, just as Trevor Birch did at Portsmouth and Campbell Ogilvie did at Deadco in similar roles.  Unfortunate job title I know, but both of those men are meant to be brilliant football administrators.

Am I hurting just now?  You bet I am!  But you won't find me in the equivalent of an ISIS execution video filmed in Tannadice Street.  Relegation happens in football.  Should it happen to us?  Probably not, but then again you should probably not completely disintegrate over the loss of 2 players over the course of a year and 2 transfer windows.

And now I know how Joan of Arc felt, now I know how Joan of Arc felt,
As the flames rose, to her Roman nose and her Walkman start to melt.  Oh!

For the record Rangers fans sat back and did nothing while their Club was being ruined, same as Hearts fans, same as Dundee fans.

Happy we have fans that won't be bent over as easy.

I don't care so much about relegation as the fact we are being ruined from top to bottom and being left without a pot to piss in.


 

Fooky,

Given the bleak financial outlook you've just portrayed in the event of seemingly inevitable releagtion,i have to ask.....what exactly is your problem with people questioning the respective roles of David Southern and Stephen Thompson?

Given that they're two of the highest earners at the club and it would seem are picking up a wage for job-sharing the same workload that used to be covered by one,i would see this quite sensibly as one of the first points of call when we have to cut our cloth.

People keep asking a question that annoys me.Who is gonna buy the club from Thompson?Who's the alternative?

Maybe there is currently no-one on the horizon at the moment but that doesn't mean we have to accept Stephen Thompson as Chairman and one that picks up a huge wage each year.

There is a big difference between the roles of being 'Chairman' and 'majority shareholder'.One role any Tom,Dick or Harry can fulfill if they're lucky enough to be born into the right family and wealth.The other role you need a bit of credentials to fulfill successfully.

I simply feel we could do much better and have a more dynamic and (above all else at the moment) enthusiastic and charasmatic individual behind the hot-seat.

If Thompson wants to continue his majority shareholding then there is perhaps nothing the support can do about that.But we absolutely do not need to accept him continuing as Chairman if he is not doing a good job.

Tek wrote:

Fooky,

Given the bleak financial outlook you've just portrayed in the event of seemingly inevitable releagtion,i have to ask.....what exactly is your problem with people questioning the respective roles of David Southern and Stephen Thompson?

Given that they're two of the highest earners at the club and it would seem are picking up a wage for job-sharing the same workload that used to be covered by one,i would see this quite sensibly as one of the first points of call when we have to cut our cloth.

People keep asking a question that annoys me.Who is gonna buy the club from Thompson?Who's the alternative?

Maybe there is currently no-one on the horizon at the moment but that doesn't mean we have to accept Stephen Thompson as Chairman and one that picks up a huge wage each year.

There is a big difference between the roles of being 'Chairman' and 'majority shareholder'.One role any Tom,Dick or Harry can fulfill if they're lucky enough to be born into the right family and wealth.The other role you need a bit of credentials to fulfill successfully.

I simply feel we could do much better and have a more dynamic and (above all else at the moment) enthusiastic and charasmatic individual behind the hot-seat.

If Thompson wants to continue his majority shareholding then there is perhaps nothing the support can do about that.But we absolutely do not need to accept him continuing as Chairman if he is not doing a good job.

 
Absofuckinglutely

blackandtangerine wrote:

Some folk need to get out more Haha 😂

 
I'm lying in hospital after an ankle op, that's my excuse 😉. Nurses aren't even braw

Tek wrote:

Fooky,

Given the bleak financial outlook you've just portrayed in the event of seemingly inevitable releagtion,i have to ask.....what exactly is your problem with people questioning the respective roles of David Southern and Stephen Thompson?

Given that they're two of the highest earners at the club and it would seem are picking up a wage for job-sharing the same workload that used to be covered by one,i would see this quite sensibly as one of the first points of call when we have to cut our cloth.

People keep asking a question that annoys me.Who is gonna buy the club from Thompson?Who's the alternative?

Maybe there is currently no-one on the horizon at the moment but that doesn't mean we have to accept Stephen Thompson as Chairman and one that picks up a huge wage each year.

There is a big difference between the roles of being 'Chairman' and 'majority shareholder'.One role any Tom,Dick or Harry can fulfill if they're lucky enough to be born into the right family and wealth.The other role you need a bit of credentials to fulfill successfully.

I simply feel we could do much better and have a more dynamic and (above all else at the moment) enthusiastic and charasmatic individual behind the hot-seat.

If Thompson wants to continue his majority shareholding then there is perhaps nothing the support can do about that.But we absolutely do not need to accept him continuing as Chairman if he is not doing a good job.

'Applause'
 

Andy, see where your coming from with that post.

Looks like, and to be clear I don't know, we've wasted a lot of money rather than overspent.

lifesanocean wrote:

We should get Dundee City Council in. They're experts at cutting jobs, wages and boys terms and conditions at a minutes notice.

 
That's the sore bit, never like anyone undeserving losing their job, even the footballers, but it looks like it's going to have to happen.

I cannot believe we were already running at a substantial weekly loss then Thompson brings in someone to do his job but does NOT take a pay cut to offset this but actually pays a 6 figure salary for sharing a job.

Amazing

TheShed wrote:

TheShed wrote:

Foo Kin Twat wrote:

The Shed - You probably get this, but many obviously don't.  Dundee United is a PRIVATE LIMITED COMPANY owned by (the) Thompson (Family) and stripping it barely back, we are merely Customers albeit customers with an emotional interest!!!  If Dundee United were doing house conversions and we were customers, we would have no say in how the business was run, nor who the owner paid to run the business the way the owner wanted the business run, nor to what he earned for being the owner of that roofing business.

I deal with peoples debt every day of my life and try to stop them losing their roofs over their heads, so I know a dangerous amount about debt and debt management and repayment etc.  Here's a back of a fag packet idea of what Dundee United is run on.  Have a think about it and get back to me with how you would allocate that as a budget if you were running Dundee United?  In fact I would urge EVERYONE to have a go (but I winna haud my breath).

Don't get me wrong, the Chairman has questions to answer, but these will only be formulated once the next set of accounts are published.  And of course as Dundee United are a PRIVATE LIMITED COMPANY, the owner can limit what gets into the public domain.  Like everyone else, I will have plenty questions to ask, as the answers will determine whether I trust him with my hard earned cash in advance of a probable year in the Championship.

Anyway for this season:

£600,000 for being a Premier League Team (TV Money) - which will be £60,000 next season
£1.5M (5,000 season tickets at £300 each) - which will be nothing like that next season either
And you can choose an amount of other realistic income, but justify it please


Then allocate your break even budget to the following general categories:

Playing Staff and how many players you deem we need
Coaching/Management
Non Playing Staff
Chairman and BoD
Accommodation/Travel
Stadium Upkeep
Training Facilities

I look forward to seeing everyone's efforts...........

 
I run a business bud, I know how to form a p&l account and forecast future expectations so I'll have a look and get back to u on this. Just out of surgery tho, so let me wake up a bit first, lol.

 

Right I almost feel alive again so here goes

Firstly just read your post again and yes It's up to the owners of the company to run it how they please.  Looking at your house conversion company example though, I'd do my homework on any company I was going to use and wouldn't be a customer of a company that I didn't believe was run right.   I'm a bit of a freak about customer service and there's corner shops I won't use because of bad service, never mind House builders.  I also like to companies who treat staff and customers right, again there's plenty businesses I won't use because of this, even when it's less convenient for myself.

In short , some would say I'm a stubborn old-fashioned bastard, and maybe I am, but the one exception to these rules I have is DUFC.  My experience of Utds customer service over the last few years is that it's severely lacking.  They've taken money off my bank acc for things I didn't get, they wouldn't answer e-mails asking for it to be dealt with, I didn't even want the money back and told them this, just something in its place.  Turn up to Tannadice to a muck covered seat regularly, when paying £20 a pop that shouldn't happen.  Been spoken to like shit by stewards on more than one occasion, and believe it or not I ain't a trouble-maker. 

I've missed games because they've made it near impossible to get tickets for them, not being in Fed and living out of town, including a Dens Derby where I was gonna get tickets after the game or on the Sunday only for them to announce it was sold out, then on the Monday they're tweeting how theirs plenty tickets still on sale, by the time I'd seen this they'd gone.  Joe Rice, the head of communications, tweeted me back to say that "If it was announced, it shouldn't have been".  No apology offered, no solution given and again the club ignored e-mails.

Had to pay for the dear cup final tickets, even tho I'm a ST holder, because of the way they let everyone and anyone get there's first, despite saying they don't.  Only for more cheap ones to go on sale the next day,Mathis has happened to me twice.

A few moans, yes, but my point is if it wasn't for the emotional attachment I'd never be anywhere near being a customer at Tannadice cos their service is shocking in my experience.

Anyway back to the finance side

Income over the last 5years has been between a lowest 5 and a highest of 6 million, so I'll work off a figure of £5.5m.

A lot of the rest is gonna be guesswork as Obviously don't have close to all the required info.

1st thing I'd want to do would be have a set amount of debt reduction as in my mind that does need done.  I'd obviously, by doing this make sure we weren't losing money, not fussed about posting a profit either tho.

Let's say £0.5m goes towards servicing the debt, including interest. Got £5m left

60%-65% wage to turnover figure is fine ( a mental number in business terms, but it's football and no profit needed).

Football budget needs to come first, so -
Management team - 200k largely bonus based (football results not transfers)
1st team squad - 1.8m, obv some senior boys on more than others, also as largely bonus based as poss.
( circa 20 in number, dev squad can top up when needed, there has to always be some who are fighting for inclusion.  )
F/T Youth/dev coaches, physios, kit man, - 200k
F/T youth players - 300k
( circa 18-20 boys, half at the age where decisions need made about 1st team future, half breaking into dev squad )
100k for other football staff, P/T coaches etc.

Commercial & Media team
2 sales guys, ticket office staff, match day hospitality staff , 2 media guys and a manager for this dept - 280k

Stadium staff
Currently have a stadium manager, h&s officer and an operations manager, I can't see 2 jobs in this never mind 3.  Groundsman, receptionist and match day staff I'll count  incl stewards in here so - 280k.

Shop staff, I believe are payed by Nike or Justsport so Ill leave them out.

The boss, whether this is the chairman,  a GM, MD, CEO or whatever In my mind it justifies 1 wage and I have no problem with it being 100k, because I want to have someone capable of commanding that salary in the job so that a bloody good job gets done.

Got about 250k/300k left to keep within 65%  of turnover.  Let's call this a safety net just in case.

Looking at other expenditure over the years it can be easily kept within or around £1m, this'll cover policing/stadium maintenance/ depreciation/ St Andrews/ travel/ hotels/  Maintenance at Gussie etc.

Sorry FKT but can't go any more detailed than that with the limited info I know.

So in the ideal world I just dreamed up we've used 500k to reduce debt, made a profit of  400-500k. Sounds easy.  I realise it's not btw and also know I'll have missed some things or got some staff numbers wrong.

I think it shows what's maybe possible tho.  I also would say any money over and above the turnover figure made from a cup run/win or highe league placing I'd quite happily use a fair chunk of as extra bonuses to the footballing side of the business.  The rest should be reinvested in that side also to improve the team or academy to make the next year better.

Feel free to laugh or correct as you wish bud.

Can't wait till my knees better so I don't have time to write shit like this.

Fantastic well thought out post mate.  Or was that the morphine speaking???!!!  Had 7 knee ops myself and need 2 new ane's too, but too young to start at only 50 so says the Surgeon.  Get well soon!
 

Andy wrote:

HeggyHandshake wrote:

For the record Rangers fans sat back and did nothing while their Club was being ruined, same as Hearts fans, same as Dundee fans.

Happy we have fans that won't be bent over as easy.

 
Obviously a few people on this board know, or think they know, a lot more than most about the current financial plight, losses of anything from £10k to £15,800 a week have been mentioned for the current financial year.

The analogy with Hearts, Rangers and Dundee doesn't sit well with me though. 

Those three clubs spent tens of millions more than they brought in trying to buy success that they could never afford, two of them did so, one of those two died.  The third finished above United ONCE and printed t shirts to commemorate.  Their fans watched on in delight and didn't question where the money came from, they trusted their owners were in control, which was naive.

From my outside looking in view we're much more like Celtic and Hibs, we've sold our best players for millions of pounds and our persuit of success has suffered greatly, Celtic can't qualify for the CL and United and Hibs got/might get relegated, but because of that income we should not fear administration, we have not overspent - the opposite in fact.

If the accounts are as bad as some are predicting then there is serious mismanagement going on.

 
'Applause'

Well thought out Andy, like comparing apples n bananas.