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It is fair to say that since 2 February 2015, events at our Football Club both on and off the park took a turn for the worse; a turn that no-one (not even the most pessimistic in our midst) would have seen us sitting bottom of the SPFL as it stands some 9 months later. I’m not (nor have I ever been) a Member of Arabtrust; or in The Fed. I’m just a regular middle aged, life-experienced guy that like the rest of you passionately supports Dundee United. What I do have in my locker though is that a decade ago, I voluntarily headed up an ailing sports club and facility with huge losses at a time where no-one else would touch it with a bargepole and with a plan (that made me Public Enemy #1 with some) we transformed that place and it now operates at a level that even amazes me! Pretty sad that I hate going there now coz of the unwarranted and untrue abuse I took! I have a law degree, from 2001 and every day I try to assist people with their debts, primarily to stop them losing the roof over their family’s heads and keeping the banking wolves from their door.
I have a season ticket in the ETL, I travel to games and have met fantastic friends for life through supporting Dundee United and through Message Boards such as this. If you were to take a step back and analyse what we all spend in following United versus the statistical chance of success in the football environment that we operate in Scotland, we would all be certified! Football is all about emotional attachment, but controlling that emotion is the hardest part of it though.
When we beat Ross County in May 2010 to win the Scottish Cup, my over-riding emotion, believe it or not, was relief. That’s because whilst I have witnessed Dundee United do and win some amazing things; I have also endured more bad luck and heartache than I’d care to recollect. Losing the 2008 Employee Benefit Trust League Cup Final to Deadco having comprehensively outplayed and outpassed the Govan Galacticos hit me hard, but winning “The Scottish” in 2010 more than made up for that; even if it was more relief than unbridled joy for me! Losing the Scottish Cup in May 2014 due to (in my opinion) lack of heart from the players and tactical arrogance/naivety from the then Management Team, with the best squad of players I have seen since the mid 1980’s has, however, seen me slide back down the snake to the bottom row of the game supporting Dundee United that is snakes and ladders.
Ideally I’d have had the previous Management Team out at the end of last season, as (again in my opinion) they could not convey their calm and steely message and philosophy when being interviewed, onto the players. However, with 2 years of their contracts still to go, I knew that that was unlikely to happen, so I adopted a stance of, “let’s see where we are in the tattie holidays (showing my age there eh?)”. By mid-September though and after expensive and fruitless and pointless trips to Hamilton and Dingwall, my patience snapped and I wrote to the Thompson Family asking questions that let’s face it, every Dundee United supporter was asking, but no-one was getting any answers for.
On Saturday there, before the Ross County game, I was invited by Mr David Southern, the Club’s General Manager to meet him in the Boardroom to discuss the contents of said letter. So to those like me not belonging to any of the Inner Sanctums, here’s an Executive Summary of what we spoke of:
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[*]The lack of communication to supporters like me. I felt the Chairman had gone from one extreme to the other, ie from “rent a quote” to complete and utter radio silence. This then led to (more often than not) social media speculation, which in then is picked up by the media and reported as fact and thus begins a cycle. This does no-one any good. This was acknowledged and hopefully better use can be used of ArabZONE and perhaps the Chairman could appear on it and we can get things straight from the horse’s mouth so to speak? Having driven 140 miles to attend the Q&A at the Whitehall Theatre 18 months ago, I expressed my dissatisfaction that the promised one last season did not materialise and that this season, perhaps something on ArabZONE could replace it?
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[*]Rift between Board & ArabTrust & The Fed. Without taking sides and raking over the coals of he said/she said, Dundee United is a business and a Limited Company and therefore has to operate within Scottish Company Law rules and regulations. Both sides retreated into their respective trenches after matters that should not have become public, became public (for whatever reason) following a private meeting. As the likes of me then found themselves in the football equivalent of No Man’s Land as regards all things Dundee United, I offered to mediate between all parties, as what has been happening is doing no-one any good. Thankfully, ArabTrust Reps have apparently already met the Board to hopefully look to get things back to where they were pre 02/02/2015; and the same is hopefully in the pipeline for the Fed. If we love Dundee United (as we all do) and we feel we have been cheated, as in life you either forgive and forget and move on; or you separate. Do I really have to type out Eddie Thompson’s football team quote here to Dundee United supporters? No, didn’t think so!
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[*]The events post 02/02/2015. Having heard straight from the horse’s mouth at the Whitehall Theatre 18 months ago that there was no longer bank pressure to sell our best and most sought after players due to soft loans from sympathetic Dundee United people; whilst I could get my head around the sales of Armstrong and GMS (so soon after the sales of Gauld and Robertson) for business reasons, I could not do so for football reasons. It’s fair to say that if the Board could rewind, things would have been done differently, but as will be explained in the next point, trying to balance the books and supporters expectations is not easy. What’s done though is done and no-one could have seen us being where we are today, not the Board, the previous Management Team and certainly not me! We are where we are now though and we as a Club have to learn and move on, as you do in life. But this is perhaps a situation where in hindsight a bit more emotion would have been a good thing, ie keep one or both of them, but hey ho we missed a massive opportunity on the football front at the expense of an opportunity taken on the business front.
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[*]Running an SPFL football club. For being an SPFL football club Dundee United along with all other Premiership teams get circa £600,000 as a starting point. Our current player wage bill is between 3 and 4 times that, so it does not take a rocket scientist to work out that to get us out from behind the 8 ball at the start of each season, we need to sell at least 5,000 season tickets to get to somewhere near a break-even point there. Then you have everything else that is associated with a modern football club: ground and upkeep, training facilities, accommodation, travel and insurance, staff etc. Bottom line, it is real life and not a computer game! To put things in some kind of financial perspective. If you fail to reach the Top 6, you lose circa £65,000 per place, so the difference between say 6th and 10th is £1/4M. Get this though. If you get relegated to the Championship the circa £600,000 starting point becomes circa £60,000. That is a truly scary fact!
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[*]Transfer policy. As alluded to in point 3, harsh lessons have been learned in the past year or so in many ways. Yes key players were sold, but backing was given as regards replacements to the previous Management Team. Another point I brought up was the likes of Brian Graham, Michael Gardyne and Robbie Muirhead as loan players effectively bolstering rivals of us and harming us. As well as what due diligence gets done on the background of signings. A Board has to back their Manager, but it’s fair to say that there will be a greater degree of scrutiny going forward from now, on these aspects. The other thing to take on board is that hearing or reading in the media for example that you have sold a player for £x Million does not mean that that is what you actually net from the deal, as there are any number of variables.
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[*]The 5 Year Plan. Some view this with cynicism, so I asked about it. I am assured it is a Board Document and it is about half way through its 5-year life. It has 3 main aspects to it: Football, Finance and Community. In terms of money and support, Dundee United is about the 6th biggest financial player in Scottish Football. So in the Football Chapter the aim is to be in the Top 6 regularly and to get to Cup Finals with a view to winning some and playing in Europe. In the Finance Chapter, the aim is to have the debt of the Club at a manageable level. Most long for the Club to be “debt free”, but it is a fact of business and life that businesses and people live their live and operate “in debt”. The key is for that level to be manageable and not out of control. The Community Chapter is to continue to forge links with the public at large and community partners through the likes of the GA Arena etc. Much can happen in a 5 year period though, but the time you judge a 5-year plan is at the end of the 5 years – surely? But you have to bear in mind that an unexpected event could render any 5-year plan unachievable. So in my words of understanding, not that of Mr Southern, this is the same surely as if you were a Plumber and you gave a quote to remove a perfectly good bathroom for an agreed fee over a 2-week period and replace it with a new shiny one? Would you want judged on your competence after ripping out the old bathroom that worked OK when the bathroom was out of use and looked like a bombsite? No – you want judged when you have applied the last squeeze of silicone! But having ripped out the old bathroom you find that it had been leaking and all the wall and floor joists will also need replaced, so do you honour the old plan or insist on a new one? As this was unexpected, surely of course there has to be a reassessment?
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[*]Going forward with Mixu. The Board are hugely impressed with Mixu thus far and first and foremost, he’s a new Plumber for the want of a better analogy, so there is going to have to be a period of assessment and consolidation where things do not get worse than they already are. Then we can hopefully look at progress and things getting fixed for the longer term. The Board aim to back him as much as possible with the lessons they have learned recently. Mixu himself is keen to meet as many fans as possible too, in order to get his ideas over.
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I thought I’d be in and out in 10 or 15 minutes, but I was still sat with Mr Southern after about 50 minutes, so much so that Cath Thompson came in and sat down next to us and was introduced to me with her steak pie for lunch on a plate in her other hand!!! It was then I realised time had flown by and it was time for me to go! I’d like to think I’m nobody’s fool and I’d like to thank Mr Southern for indulging me. I enjoyed his honesty with me and my quick general insight behind the scenes at Tannadice and I wish him all the best..
I get that some will still not be happy with the Chairman or whatever, but I’m putting this on for the benefit of other Dundee United supporters just like me who have felt they have been kept in the dark. What happened on the park subsequently on Saturday there was not pretty, but it was gutsy and the result was exactly what we needed. It was appreciated by most like-minded Dundee United Supporters and showed clearly the player effort/supporter backing equation. The supporters on Saturday were on the whole, to coin a James Yuill McLean phrase, “Magnificent”. And so for what I have written above, let’s keep that feeling going (yes we’ll have setbacks along the road) and get back to where we were, ie coming home from Hampden on Saturday 31 January 2015 with anticipation and hope and before the wheels fell off 2 days later – Dundee UNITED!
Oh and Mr Southern I also apologise if you read this, for my User Name on here. Not very professional in circumstances like this for someone my age!!! Must grow up and mature a bit!!!
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What a fantastic read mate, superbly written.
A good few points in there for the fans to chew over imo. Can't be easy getting the balance right for the club. IMO, the current board and Chairman are as good as we've had at any time in my life. It's a shame that the January sales past will stick in the memories and throats of a good few fans though, and nothing the Chairman does from now on in, will be seen as positive. I'd say, be careful what you wish for guys. Maybe we'd prefer an Angus Cook, a Ron Dixon,a Calum Melville, or maybe a Giovanni Di Stefano? Nah not me, I'm more than happy with our lot thanks.
Kudos, also to Mr Southern for entertaining the ramblings of a passionate Arab an hour or 2 before kick off of a home game. Hats off to you Sir.
Onwards and upwards.
Fkn love Dundee Utd FC.
Last edited by Silver (02/11/2015 3:51 pm)
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Great read mate.
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That's some piece of work Foo Kin. Gonna take me a few days and a few reads to take it all in. Thanks for 'involving us' by passing on this information.
If David Southern were to ever depart, think you might get a job offer. Failing that you might end up as Honorary Chairman. You might find a few folk on here offering to buy you a pint, including mysell.
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Great post Foo Kin, some great info and good to hear Southern gave you the time he did and was quite open with you by the sounds of things.
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Wow, fantastic read Fooky, I am like yourself I have no affiliation with any supporter Feds and you know we share the same mindset on most things United, but really well done mate, that was superb!
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Great stuff Mr Twat: appreciated.
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Ken what's even mare impressive? He's written all that without 1 edit. I've edited my wee reply twice so far
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Silver wrote:
What a fantastic read mate, superbly written.
IMO, the current board and Chairman are as good as we've had at any time in my life
Wonder what the George Fox and his board who never took a single penny out United in their lives would make of that comment?
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HeggyHandshake wrote:
Silver wrote:
What a fantastic read mate, superbly written.
IMO, the current board and Chairman are as good as we've had at any time in my lifeWonder what the George Fox and his board who never took a single penny out United in their lives would make of that comment?
We'll never know I suppose eh.
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Silver wrote:
HeggyHandshake wrote:
Silver wrote:
What a fantastic read mate, superbly written.
IMO, the current board and Chairman are as good as we've had at any time in my lifeWonder what the George Fox and his board who never took a single penny out United in their lives would make of that comment?
We'll never know I suppose eh.
Thanks everyone so far for your positive comments. Silver - Point 1 to you - I cheated, as I did it as a Word Document first to ensure I had written it accurately. Then I cut and pasted it over. There's some things I have not included, as a degree of discretion and diplomacy is needed when you are lucky enough to get information at that level, but what I have put is the gist of the meeting, enough for people to understand. Point 2 - We will never know, you are correct, as football back then was not looked on as the business it is now (sadly). You cannot compare like for like as there was no TV deal, no agents (yay), Bosman, employment laws, health and safety; and there was shared gate receipts etc in the era of Johnstone Grant and George Fox also. Sorry but you just cannot compare like for like. I've been told if we could turn back time we would do things differently and I accept that.
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HeggyHandshake wrote:
Silver wrote:
What a fantastic read mate, superbly written.
IMO, the current board and Chairman are as good as we've had at any time in my lifeWonder what the George Fox and his board who never took a single penny out United in their lives would make of that comment?
Are you implying he should do his job for free?
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ArdlerArab wrote:
HeggyHandshake wrote:
Silver wrote:
What a fantastic read mate, superbly written.
IMO, the current board and Chairman are as good as we've had at any time in my lifeWonder what the George Fox and his board who never took a single penny out United in their lives would make of that comment?
Are you implying he should do his job for free?
He did do his job for free.
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Thats a really good post FKT.
Refreshing to see a fellow supporter sharing the knowledge for the good of the club. None of this cloak and dagger nonsense.
Heggy, No idea where you're going with this. Trying to figure out what your post was about. Why did you throw into this that GF didnt take a penny out of United?
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ArdlerArab wrote:
Thats a really good post FKT.
Refreshing to see a fellow supporter sharing the knowledge for the good of the club. None of this cloak and dagger nonsense.
Heggy, No idea where you're going with this. Trying to figure out what your post was about. Why did you throw into this that GF didnt take a penny out of United?
Not going anywhere with it, he didnt take a penny out of United. A great Chairman, and every person who ever worked for him will tell you the same...........
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Still no getting why you brought it up. Strange if you aren't going anywhere with it.
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ArdlerArab wrote:
Still no getting why you brought it up. Strange if you aren't going anywhere with it.
You dont get it?? Fair enough.
Did you read the quote from Silvers post??
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Good post Fooky
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Great post from a smashing fella.
Where's your lot kicking about for Aberdeen, FKT?
Good post FKT.
Good to see some engagement from the club and let's hope they take your points about poor communications on board.
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Excellent post Thanks for sharing what you could.
I agree that the silence from ST has been frustrating but I do think he was on a hiding to nothing. Anything he said was going to be nitpicked over . . . . His silence was always going to be nitpicked over.
Selling on the Celtic two when we did was wrong but I appreciate the difficulty. They apparently wanted to go and United wanted money for them. We lost the St J final with them in the team so keeping them offered no guarantees. Most of my temper tantrum at the time was directed at Celtic, they were so gutless that they couldn't let us have a square go, they had to weaken the opposition in a vain attempt to try to buy their way to the treble. I'm glad they failed.
It was, and still is heartbreaking to see our team with their heads down and it's heartbreaking to see us as supporters not doing much supporting when we turn up to the match. We made money on the selling but then lost it on the gates. Hopefully in the future we can strike a balance between the two.
I'm looking forward to some Mixu magic
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Great post Sir. With regards to Arabtrust, Grantomac posted on Facebook that trust reps met with Mixu on Saturday and were very impressed with what he had to say. It would also appear that the long awaited meeting with ST over the 20 questions document will happen soon. Hopefully olive branches all round. The good thing is Mixu has started the process of uniting the fans and putting the fight back into the club. LONG way to go though. I missed Saturday but will be going on Saturday methinks. Onwards and upwards.
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Thanks for your kind comments Gents. I have heard various things in the last year like, "oh we are losing this or that thousand pounds a week or a month". With my day job in mind, some sense of perspective is needed, as finishing one league place lower than where you aim to be with a break even budget means you are going to lose about £5,000 a month. Two League places means £10,000 per month and so on. That is a high pressure environment to be setting annual budgets etc in a business that is as volatile as football, I'll tell you. Surely even the biggest detractors must admit that?
Waffelz ... nae sure yet what my plan is. I believe Mr Dantes wishes shown around some of the the Granite Shitty's low spots. PM me how you are travelling and I'll answer any questions you have. And of course I will probably see you Wednesday?
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Foo Kin Twat wrote:
Thanks for your kind comments Gents. I have heard various things in the last year like, "oh we are losing this or that thousand pounds a week or a month". With my day job in mind, some sense of perspective is needed, as finishing one league place lower than where you aim to be with a break even budget means you are going to lose about £5,000 a month. Two League places means £10,000 per month and so on. That is a high pressure environment to be setting annual budgets etc in a business that is as volatile as football, I'll tell you. Surely even the biggest detractors must admit that?
Waffelz ... nae sure yet what my plan is. I believe Mr Dantes wishes shown around some of the the Granite Shitty's low spots. PM me how you are travelling and I'll answer any questions you have. And of course I will probably see you Wednesday?
Did you ask any questions about finances??
You mention that we lose money per place, so for example we budgeted for Top 6 and were already losing 20k a week then had to sack our management team whilst having to bring in more players and now praying for a 3rd bottom finish. If these were the sort of circumstances facing us, would that be a worry??
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Train gets in just after 18:30 for Edinburgh, last train home from there gets into Dundee at 01:00 or something.
Train to Aberdeen- not sure if my old man is driving up though. Definitely last train home from there as well. I'd imagine I'll be there fairly early