TEK wrote:

 Your EU fears are also completely bizarre imo.WE will decide the extent of our contribution in the EU.Going cap'n'hand to get the Euro seems highly unlikely.

Not sure what your fears are based on tbh.
 

We would decide the extent of our contribution in the EU would we? Just like the Greeks, the Irish, the Spics, the Italians etc etc have? Pre Eurozone crisis, Alex Salmond was pro Euro currency union. The main Scottish 'independence' politician, was in favour of granting Brussels (Berlin) power over issuance of our currency and our banking system. If he really thought that a country can claim to be independent when a foreign power issues it's currency then he is far too fucking stupid to lead an independent Scotland. If he knows very well that a country cannot be independent when a foreign power controls it's fiscal affairs, then he is just another fucking slimeball politician.

There is a big difference between decentralisation of power, and divide and conquer. I suspect that history will teach us that when Scottish 'independence' comes at some point in the first half of the 21st century, the latter of those terms will be most appropriately applied.


 

Andy wrote:

Mat, you sound like you're sitting typing furiously at your laptop with a tinfoil hat on worried that immigrants are coming to take us over.

Your whole point, I think, is that a country can't be independent without its own central bank?

Despite the fact that over 100 countries operate within a Currency Union on every continent each day?

Would you be happy if we asked them to change the referendum question to something along the lines of "Should Scotland be an independent country that will use a shared currency?"

I don't think that would affect the outcome greatly tbh.

I know you disagree and think you know more than most, but the man on the street does not care about what unit we spend but about how many units are retained to be spent in Scotland.

Typed out a better reply than this but hit a back button and now it is gone.

In short, an independent Scotland using the GBP over which it had no control or say, would be akin to riding around on a bucking bronco without having control of the reigns. Infact it would be worse than that cos some other cowboy would have control of the reigns who may just have the inclination to make the ride a little bumpier for his neighbour from time to time.

It would be an intolerable situation on so many levels and will not last....

If things go the Yes campaigns way on the 18th, then just wait and see what happens. 10 years or less and we will be a fully signed up and lubed up junior member of the Euro currency union and Salmond or whatever other slimebag politician will be getting nominated for an EU presidency or commisioner job.


 

arabugsy wrote:

As a matter of interest, what is your utopian vision of the UK in 10 years time after a widely hypothetical no vote?
 

Providing we haven't had some kind of crippling global disaster such as the outbreak of a major war between the big powers (lets face it, it looks like it is on the cards with the US being particularly keen on pushing the issue), then my best guess would be the same old shit as before but a bit worse off cos that is the way that things are going. We are in a corrective (that's bad) phase of the US lead global economic cycle but the fact is being covered up essentially through inflation of the money supply / quantative easing etc. 

If the Yes campaign does get it's result, then I would really hope that there are enough political and business leaders, and talented civil servants with enough guile and altruism (because exceptional levels of guile and altruism is what it would take) to make a success out of an independent North Sea social democractic oil rich Scotland. But my understanding of the world and how things generally work tells me that the 'forces of darkness' would be dangling irresistable bunches of golden carrots out in front of the noses of any ambitious cartel of business leaders or bootlicking slimeball politicians. The primary political force in Europe today is the EU, which is generally controlled by big finance and big industry, the lionshare of it being German in origin. The goal of the EU is to swallow up the whole of Europe and create a behemoth centrally controlled power block. Best of luck to any sproutling 'new nation' (because 1200 years of 'Scotland' or not, that is what we would be), against a backdrop of that and bickering with a vastly more powerful and wealthy southern neighbour with whom we will share a currency (that they control) and a great big shit chunk of private banker debt which has been transferred onto the tax payer account.

Anyways.....keep saying the same things over and over. You guys have your views and I have mine.
 

arabugsy wrote:

Gotcha, your utopian view after a no win is then a win in a Tory/UKIP EU referendum when you're freed from German dominance.

Then, presumably, a right wing government controlling Scotland ad infinitum?

My utopian vision would be an independent Scotland, with it's own independent currency and a majority state ownership of it's oil resources. This independent Scotland would trade with the EU without any requirement to be a part of it, take instruction from it, or pay billions of taxpayer money into it. So much the same deal as Norway has today.

Our currency would be created by a Central Bank of Scotland upon request of the Government who would then spend it into the economy. Therefore, there would be no need for any government debt and therefore no requirement to pass on the interest payments on this debt onto the taxpayer or makw swinging austerity cuts. Our independent government backed non-debt based currency would be accepted the world over as we would only accept Scottish Pound Sterling in exchange for oil and whiskey exports. Of course, the private business who actually own Scottish oil and whiskey production might have something to say about this but a strong Scottish leader would soon put them all in their place, Vladimir Putin style........

........I could go on about how an independent Scotland would gradually take back ownership of our natural assets and raw materials into state hands, and how the state would then reinvest the proceeds into the infrastructure of the nation, keeping a certain amount back for a Norwegian style national Oil Fund, to provide future security for the land.......blah blah blah.......

Its 'blah blah blah', not because a state such as this couldn't exist, but because it aint ever going to happen. It aint ever going to happen, because there are too many powerful interests who would stand in it's way, and politicians tend to align themselves with powerful interests. If they didn't, they wouldnt be politicians and the exact same thing could be said about all the other 'utopian' visions that I am hearing in the mainstream from the Yes campaigners.

It is utopian for a reason. That reason being, that deep down everyone knows that it aint ever going to happen, cos the big bad wolf isn't going to let it happen.

But yeah.....if the Tory's and UKIP get into power and form the next coalition parliament resulting in a UK out the EU referendum (and middle England would vote to come out the EU in thier droves), then I would see that as a desirable development. 


 

Well, that was a pleasant surprise. Thought I'd found a right wing no voter but he's as YES as me but less confident of revolution by evolution. One step at a time and Independence is first. We then start with a clean slate politically to do as the country wishes while being vigilant with the politicians for evermore.

No decided, head v heart stuff.

Don't regret this opportunity, vote how you see fit, just don't say you never had the chance for change

Mat the Cat was an interesting poster.

But reading this thread back he had a shocker on a number of level.

He is no longer banned so i would be genuinely interested in his feedback.