nickymkirk wrote:

Tek wrote:

Absolutely awful 1st half performance (despite a bright first 5-10 minutes), where Dundee were faster, stronger, hungrier and looked more up for a fight. Truth be told only poor finishing stopped us going in at the break 3-0 down.

2nd half better, but also felt we could have played all-night and not scored. It looked like Dundee were fairly happy to let us have the ball as they felt comfortable defending against us, which would be backed up by the fact that i can only recall Jon McKracken making one real save the entire 2nd half.

After 21 years without Derby defeat at Tannadice, that's now two defeats on the bounce and 3 Dundee Derby defeats in the past 12 months. Adding weight again to the theory that Jim Goodwin doesn't get us up for 'BIG games' often enough. Further backed up by his atrocious Cup record whilst in charge.

My Player ratings on a sobering day -

Richards 7 - Decent enough. Made a couple of vital interceptions. His kicking erratic though. Once or twice a long punt went right into the hands of Jon McKracken. Careless.

Iovu 6- Thought he was poor today and lucky to last as long as he did given he sat on a yellow card from the 20th minute.

Esselink 5 - Was brutally exposed against Celtic recently, and once again today. Turned slower than an Oil-Tanker at their goal. Subbed off at Half Time once again. The writing has to be on the wall for him at Tannadice.

Keresztes 5 - Big fan of him, but he was weak as piss at times today and positionally wanting. For me he would be a very good CDM. I'd very much like to see him tried there at some point rather than stubbornly try and play him in a position he's struggling in. Play to his strengths i.e. comfortable with the ball at his feet, good eye for a forward pass.

Stephenson 5 - His poorest game for United. Got slaughtered by Tony Yogane in the 1st half.

Ferry 5 - All too often his crossing is either over hit or under hit. He'll never be a top player because of this major weakness in his game. Caught out positionally at times too. Once when Dundee should have scored at our back post.

Sibbald 5 - Poor performance.

Camara 6 - His poorest performance in a United jersey, but at least didn't hide and still tried everything he could to dictate our play. 

Fatah 6 - Dundee done a number on him by doubling up on him. To his credit he had the game intelligence to drift central and try and get into the game that way, but it was one of those afternoon's where nothing came off for him. Not unusual for a winger.

Watters 5 - Heart of a Mouse. Watched the game take place around him and at no point looked interested in taking part. Wasn't even jumping up and contesting most 50/50 headers. A big strong lad too. I'd bin him. Living off a couple of goals from last Summer. Looks a shadow of that player now.

Sapsford 6 - See my comments about Fatah. If he's denied space he's just not the same player.

Subs - 

Stirton 6 - Zero service to really assess his merits properly.

Trapanovski 5 - Remember when he got nicknamed 'Trapadona'? Seems a long time ago now. A one trick Pony who all too often can't get a cross past his first man.

Dolcek 5 - Offered nothing. Once again. Another one living off a couple of goals from last Summer. End the loan.

Ross Graham 6 - Offered a bit of calm and assurance to our rattled backline.
 

Always enjoy reading people’s interpretation of performances especially as on overseas expat. I feel 5 is too high for esselink. Wattera and Dolcek. One lacks ability and physical attributes for Scottish football, the other 2 are utterly bereft of commitment. 3 for bert at best, 3 for watters, dolcek was utterly anonymous and a passenger. 3 for him.
 

5 tends to be the lowest score i give (not trying to be too nasty).

Tonight's ratings were a test in that regard however. 
 

One thing I meant to mention before the match.
In his pre match press comments Goodwin said something along the lines of the players don't need motivating for the match, they know how important it is for the fans. I was astounded to hear that because if I was United manager I'd be in that dressing room before kickoff giving each player individual motivation then a rousing passionate team address before they went out onto the pitch.

I don't think they got that.

Tek wrote:

nickymkirk wrote:

Tek wrote:

Absolutely awful 1st half performance (despite a bright first 5-10 minutes), where Dundee were faster, stronger, hungrier and looked more up for a fight. Truth be told only poor finishing stopped us going in at the break 3-0 down.

2nd half better, but also felt we could have played all-night and not scored. It looked like Dundee were fairly happy to let us have the ball as they felt comfortable defending against us, which would be backed up by the fact that i can only recall Jon McKracken making one real save the entire 2nd half.

After 21 years without Derby defeat at Tannadice, that's now two defeats on the bounce and 3 Dundee Derby defeats in the past 12 months. Adding weight again to the theory that Jim Goodwin doesn't get us up for 'BIG games' often enough. Further backed up by his atrocious Cup record whilst in charge.

My Player ratings on a sobering day -

Richards 7 - Decent enough. Made a couple of vital interceptions. His kicking erratic though. Once or twice a long punt went right into the hands of Jon McKracken. Careless.

Iovu 6- Thought he was poor today and lucky to last as long as he did given he sat on a yellow card from the 20th minute.

Esselink 5 - Was brutally exposed against Celtic recently, and once again today. Turned slower than an Oil-Tanker at their goal. Subbed off at Half Time once again. The writing has to be on the wall for him at Tannadice.

Keresztes 5 - Big fan of him, but he was weak as piss at times today and positionally wanting. For me he would be a very good CDM. I'd very much like to see him tried there at some point rather than stubbornly try and play him in a position he's struggling in. Play to his strengths i.e. comfortable with the ball at his feet, good eye for a forward pass.

Stephenson 5 - His poorest game for United. Got slaughtered by Tony Yogane in the 1st half.

Ferry 5 - All too often his crossing is either over hit or under hit. He'll never be a top player because of this major weakness in his game. Caught out positionally at times too. Once when Dundee should have scored at our back post.

Sibbald 5 - Poor performance.

Camara 6 - His poorest performance in a United jersey, but at least didn't hide and still tried everything he could to dictate our play. 

Fatah 6 - Dundee done a number on him by doubling up on him. To his credit he had the game intelligence to drift central and try and get into the game that way, but it was one of those afternoon's where nothing came off for him. Not unusual for a winger.

Watters 5 - Heart of a Mouse. Watched the game take place around him and at no point looked interested in taking part. Wasn't even jumping up and contesting most 50/50 headers. A big strong lad too. I'd bin him. Living off a couple of goals from last Summer. Looks a shadow of that player now.

Sapsford 6 - See my comments about Fatah. If he's denied space he's just not the same player.

Subs - 

Stirton 6 - Zero service to really assess his merits properly.

Trapanovski 5 - Remember when he got nicknamed 'Trapadona'? Seems a long time ago now. A one trick Pony who all too often can't get a cross past his first man.

Dolcek 5 - Offered nothing. Once again. Another one living off a couple of goals from last Summer. End the loan.

Ross Graham 6 - Offered a bit of calm and assurance to our rattled backline.
 

Always enjoy reading people’s interpretation of performances especially as on overseas expat. I feel 5 is too high for esselink. Wattera and Dolcek. One lacks ability and physical attributes for Scottish football, the other 2 are utterly bereft of commitment. 3 for bert at best, 3 for watters, dolcek was utterly anonymous and a passenger. 3 for him.
 

5 tends to be the lowest score i give (not trying to be too nasty).

Tonight's ratings were a test in that regard however. 
 

I can respect that! They are still our players after all so maybe we should be giving them a little more grace.

Morphman wrote:

redford_must_score wrote:

2

Morphman wrote:

Don't get me wrong, Livi were easily the poorest team we've played this year, however the boys that were dropped from the starting lineup have to be wondering what they did wrong. Easily the most threatening we had looked all season, 3 goals scored, and could've easily been 5 or 6 IMO. Defensively the best we've looked, and bar a wee error combined with a bad deflection we'd have a clean sheet also. Instead we revert to the standard XI vs Dundee and look extremely meek going forward.

Understand we're a bit thin on the ground at RB  (strain, nammo and Sevelj all injured) and that forced Stephenson back out there, but for Camara to get a game ahead of Eskesen after not kicking a ball for a month is absolutely damning for his future. Camara definitely cost us in the first half, not just the goal but he was well off it.

 
Camara has been great for us whenever he's played and also brought the best out of Sibbald. It was a risk that he wouldn't be match fit and so it proved. But Goodwin did absolutely nothing about it, just stood and watched the guy floundering when he could have taken off Watters and added help into the midfield. What a prick.

A bit disappointing that you're singling out a player who probably should have been told a derby return is too early for you.
Especially when Iovu Esselink Keresztes Stephenson and Watters were rank rotten. But I get that opinions are different for everyone.

 

I think you're misreading my comment, I'm suggesting Goodwin's selection of him to start a derby is the main failing. The first 45 mins was the 45 mins of player who's no match fit. It shows Goodwin doesn't trust Eskesen at all if he's felt the need to play to a clearly not ready Camara. Camara's performance falls at the feet of Goodwin here for me, rather than a dig at the player himself.

 
I did misread your post then Morph.

SuperMario wrote:

Surely we start playing SCH and stirton for the sheer sell on value both will have when they 100 game under there belt.

Watters and Bert are miles off it atm

We have to get back to just playing the best players available regardless of age.

And not because of 'sell on value' or because of our 'player trading model' and bullshit like that.

Not a go at you Mario btw and i would like to see those two young lads playing more than the other two you cite, but not for potential future monetary gain. Just because i think they might offer more to us in the short term.

For me, part of the 'cancer' around our club these past few years has been the obsession with punting any young player we can, and often for buttons.

How can the fans ever feel a sense of community or excitement about the much vaunted Academy if we never see these lads really play for us?

Feel like we've been saying this the entirety of the Ogren era. Despite the likes of Andy Goldie, Adam Asghar, Chris McIntosh and now Scott Allison telling us regularly how amazing it is all going. Where is the evidence? What players are imminently ready to go from Academy to First team in the next 12-18 months? And be regulars?

Sounds like constant propaganda with nothing to back it up, does it not?

Though here's the thing, they'll need to start backing it up if they're going to start getting the begging bowl out and once again approach the DUSF and other United fan groups for more funding in light of the SFA cuts.

I'd suggest far more scrutiny towards the constant 'benevolent' hand-out's. That seem to just be fascilitating Ogren's plan of 'spinning the roullette table' and hoping for a big win, rather than us ever wanting to actually put a young, talented Scottish side on the park to play and win games for United.

Which is what it should be all about.
 

nickymkirk wrote:

You're right....50% hit rate would be fine if we could retain our good players beyond 2 seasons and actually build. The likelihood is Sapsford and Ferry get cherry picked with no real successors in place and we take a huge step backwards and have to roll the dice again on large number of incomings. Although it seems that many would be pretty happy with Ferry moving on for a reasonable fee. 

Despite his failings i would prefer to keep Ferry, because he offers us positives too, but only if his heart and head's still at United, which i'd doubt.

Think the whole Vancouver bid turned his head. He's never been consistently good since, apart from recently (ironically). I like him btw, but still think we could do better. He's no Andy Robertson, or Paul Dixon (1st spell), i'm not even sure he's better than Barry Douglas. I think our bar is just lower than previous years.
 

Tek wrote:

SuperMario wrote:

Surely we start playing SCH and stirton for the sheer sell on value both will have when they 100 game under there belt.

Watters and Bert are miles off it atm

We have to get back to just playing the best players available regardless of age.

And not because of 'sell on value' or because of our 'player trading model' and bullshit like that.

Not a go at you Mario btw and i would like to see those two young lads playing more than the other two you cite, but not for potential future monetary gain. Just because i think they might offer more to us in the short term.

For me, part of the 'cancer' around our club these past few years has been the obsession with punting any young player we can, and often for buttons.

How can the fans ever feel a sense of community or excitement about the much vaunted Academy if we never see these lads really play for us?

Feel like we've been saying this the entirety of the Ogren era. Despite the likes of Andy Goldie, Adam Asghar, Chris McIntosh and now Scott Allison telling us regularly how amazing it is all going. Where is the evidence? What players are imminently ready to go from Academy to First team in the next 12-18 months? And be regulars?

Sounds like constant propaganda with nothing to back it up, does it not?

Though here's the thing, they'll need to start backing it up if they're going to start getting the begging bowl out and once again approach the DUSF and other United fan groups for more funding in light of the SFA cuts.

I'd suggest far more scrutiny towards the constant 'benevolent' hand-out's. That seem to just be fascilitating Ogren's plan of 'spinning the roullette table' and hoping for a big win, rather than us ever wanting to actually put a young, talented Scottish side on the park to play and win games for United.

Which is what it should be all about.
 

Great post.
 

Yesterday was just a shit-show from start to finish, particularly the first half.  We were at home with a big crowd behind us but we played like we were away at Celtic Park.    SCH plays very well on Tuesday, dropped.  I don't get it.

Iovu was excellent against Aberdeen but looked like he'd never seen a football yesterday.  Bert has regressed so much from the first 8 games or so of the season, its unreal.  Keresztes I think is a really decent player but was way off it again yesterday.   

SCH has to play alongside Graham going forward.

Slotbadger wrote:

This one mostly on Goodwin for me. I am starting to lose patience.

What sort of message does it send out to SCH and Stirton when they finally get a start, play well as part of our best win of the season and are then dropped like nothing for experienced pros who have proved over half a season they are not good enough and in my opinion the young lads are already better players.

Again, our performances and not results at home are the big worry for me. It is not that we lost, we have been  completely outplayed by all the worst teams in the league. Especially by Livingston first half, Killy, Dundee and Falkirk. That will be the bottom 4 in the league for me if we aren’t one of them.

 
Stirton is still nowhere near good enough to be starting, certainly not in a big game like yesterday’s,  for what people may think of watters and I agree with most but he has more about him all round,  would of went with Sapsford in the middle of the 3 and left watters on the bench,

SCH is sinilat story I like him think he’s got a big future but not ready to start in the 11 either
Esselink is far too slow imo,  as soon as Graham replaced him the defence looked settled and Dundee didn’t really have a sniff

In all we have a decent squad didn’t think we turned up yesterday tho Dundee wanted it more

Conway11 wrote:

Where the hell do we go from here?

As stated many times,

IT'S TIME TO GO!

See ya! 

Finn Seemann wrote:

Conway11 wrote:

Where the hell do we go from here?

As stated many times,

IT'S TIME TO GO!

See ya! 

 

Still backing him??

Both goodwins out

Do it Luigi and save our season.

Finn Seemann wrote:

Conway11 wrote:

Finn Seemann wrote:

See ya! 

 

Still backing him??

Both goodwins out

Do it Luigi and save our season.

If not sacking is backing then yes I am.  Luigi wants Barry Ferguson apparently - that happens then I'm out.

That would be a staggering appointment and there would be a mutiny if it happened. I don't believe that. Surely not.