Tekel Towers » United vs St.Mirren

CCX2 2010 · 08/5/2025 5:02 pm

Goodwin said in today's press conference that the only absentee on Saturday will be big Ross, he has been known to tell a few porkies in them meetings all the same.

That being the case- 3,5,2 with Sevelj back in the middle please.

Tek · 08/5/2025 6:00 pm

CCX2 2010 wrote:
It was not in response to your post however what type of manager is Goodwin?

A cautious one.

I meant we would see what he was made of in relation to the injury crisis in defence, because it might force him to employ a tactic that doesn't come naturally to him i.e. attack.

CCX2 2010 · 08/5/2025 6:28 pm

Tek wrote:
CCX2 2010 wrote:
It was not in response to your post however what type of manager is Goodwin?
A cautious one.

I meant we would see what he was made of in relation to the injury crisis in defence, because it might force him to employ a tactic that doesn't come naturally to him i.e. attack.

That's unfair imo, he built a squad to get out of the championship, which he done at the 1st attempt.

Most of the squad he assembled to fight for three points at Greenock on a wet Tuesday night are still here.

He shipped out 15 players this season overhauling the playing squad to keep us up, which he has done with ease.

The tines this season, where he has asked some of the guys to play attacking football, we have been found well short of the required level.

There have been multiple times this season he has been far too attacking and it cost us points-

Rangers at home, Dundee at home, Hearts and Hibs at home, Aberdeen away second time (went for 3 when he we could easily had 1).

There's lots more to it but it's lazy to just brandish him defensive without looking at all of the circumstances he has inherited.

Next season will be the first time imo we will have a chance to evaluate him in terms of style of play, but again, I just want to see us win.

Just need to look up the road for all the evidence you need.

Last edited by CCX2 2010 (08/5/2025 6:29 pm)

redford_must_score · 08/5/2025 7:00 pm

This is arguably a season defining match. The manager will know it and most likely the players will know it too. Can the players get themselves up for the prize at stake, we're about to find out.
I'm expecting at least one of the walking wounded to start at the back. But we could really do with Svelj back into the midfield because we've missed his presence there. His positional sense and anticipation of danger has been fantastic there.

The danger for us is in playing for a draw, losing a goal and being unable to score ourselves.
Hopefully the fans get right behind the players and we find a bit of battling form to reward them.

redford_must_score · 08/5/2025 7:14 pm

CCX2 2010 wrote:
Tek wrote:
CCX2 2010 wrote:
It was not in response to your post however what type of manager is Goodwin?
A cautious one.

I meant we would see what he was made of in relation to the injury crisis in defence, because it might force him to employ a tactic that doesn't come naturally to him i.e. attack.

That's unfair imo, he built a squad to get out of the championship, which he done at the 1st attempt.

Most of the squad he assembled to fight for three points at Greenock on a wet Tuesday night are still here.

He shipped out 15 players this season overhauling the playing squad to keep us up, which he has done with ease.

The tines this season, where he has asked some of the guys to play attacking football, we have been found well short of the required level.

There have been multiple times this season he has been far too attacking and it cost us points-

Rangers at home, Dundee at home, Hearts and Hibs at home, Aberdeen away second time (went for 3 when he we could easily had 1).

There's lots more to it but it's lazy to just brandish him defensive without looking at all of the circumstances he has inherited.

Next season will be the first time imo we will have a chance to evaluate him in terms of style of play, but again, I just want to see us win.

Just need to look up the road for all the evidence you need.

Not wishing to get between the handbags 😁 but always up for a debate.
I think you're both correct.
I think Goodwin knew that survival would be built on a strong defensive set up and that's how he set us up in the early games.
I think he probably couldn't believe his luck when it actually delivered way beyond what maybe even he expected.
I think there have been times in that first 2/3 of the season when we deservedly looked a threat in the final third but in all honesty we never looked like a consistent fluid creative side even when getting the 3 points.
I'm guessing but I'm thinking Goodwin then decides to experiment with attack and it's rebounded spectacularly on us every time he's tried it. We just lack the quality in midfield and up front to play 433 and after the derby disaster he should have realised it was a non starter. But no, he goes 433 against Celtic! Muppetry in action.
If we finish 6th it would feel like a big let down. It's now up to JG and the players to make sure that doesn't happen because the fans have been behind the team in big numbers.

The test for next season is recruitment and that is throughout - at the back, in the middle and up front.
Not much to ask.

Last edited by redford_must_score (08/5/2025 7:15 pm)

David_Blunkett · 08/5/2025 8:26 pm

Finishing 6th, when we were sitting 9 points clear with 5 to play, is serious grounds for questioning the managers position, even from his most ardent fans.

Tek · 08/5/2025 8:57 pm

CCX2 2010 wrote:
Tek wrote:
CCX2 2010 wrote:
It was not in response to your post however what type of manager is Goodwin?
A cautious one.

I meant we would see what he was made of in relation to the injury crisis in defence, because it might force him to employ a tactic that doesn't come naturally to him i.e. attack.

That's unfair imo, he built a squad to get out of the championship, which he done at the 1st attempt.

Most of the squad he assembled to fight for three points at Greenock on a wet Tuesday night are still here.

He shipped out 15 players this season overhauling the playing squad to keep us up, which he has done with ease.

The tines this season, where he has asked some of the guys to play attacking football, we have been found well short of the required level.

There have been multiple times this season he has been far too attacking and it cost us points-

Rangers at home, Dundee at home, Hearts and Hibs at home, Aberdeen away second time (went for 3 when he we could easily had 1).

There's lots more to it but it's lazy to just brandish him defensive without looking at all of the circumstances he has inherited.

Next season will be the first time imo we will have a chance to evaluate him in terms of style of play, but again, I just want to see us win.

Just need to look up the road for all the evidence you need.

Most of what you wrote above is true, but that doesn't take away that he is an inherently cautious and defensively minded Manager, that isn't so much a criticism as a statement of fact.

And that also doesn't mean that his team won't at times win, we have done so plenty of times this season alone.

But that also doesn't take away from the fact that in games of football where we need to 'have a go' and win the match on the day, we invariably struggle.

His record in the Cups is evidence to that.

CCX2 2010 · 08/5/2025 10:05 pm

Tek wrote:
CCX2 2010 wrote:
Tek wrote:

A cautious one.

I meant we would see what he was made of in relation to the injury crisis in defence, because it might force him to employ a tactic that doesn't come naturally to him i.e. attack.

That's unfair imo, he built a squad to get out of the championship, which he done at the 1st attempt.

Most of the squad he assembled to fight for three points at Greenock on a wet Tuesday night are still here.

He shipped out 15 players this season overhauling the playing squad to keep us up, which he has done with ease.

The tines this season, where he has asked some of the guys to play attacking football, we have been found well short of the required level.

There have been multiple times this season he has been far too attacking and it cost us points-

Rangers at home, Dundee at home, Hearts and Hibs at home, Aberdeen away second time (went for 3 when he we could easily had 1).

There's lots more to it but it's lazy to just brandish him defensive without looking at all of the circumstances he has inherited.

Next season will be the first time imo we will have a chance to evaluate him in terms of style of play, but again, I just want to see us win.

Just need to look up the road for all the evidence you need.
Most of what you wrote above is true, but that doesn't take away that he is an inherently cautious and defensively minded Manager, that isn't so much a criticism as a statement of fact.

And that also doesn't mean that his team won't at times win, we have done so plenty of times this season alone.

But that also doesn't take away from the fact that in games of football where we need to 'have a go' and win the match on the day, we invariably struggle.

His record in the Cups is evidence to that.

Of course ,just like I pointed out above, we struggle because we don't yet have the players.

He is pissing with the cock he's got.

We will find out next season if he can improve on the points you raise, as I say, it's blinkered not to take all of the circumstances into the overall state of the current playing squad and lable him as a coach.

Tek · 09/5/2025 12:01 am

CCX2 2010 wrote:

Of course ,just like I pointed out above, we struggle because we don't yet have the players.

He is pissing with the cock he's got.

.

He didn't have the players to beat Darvel, Spartans, QotS, Partick Thistle, Falkirk x2, Dundee?

All teams he's lost to in the Cup in the past 2 years or so.

Probably best to leave it there, i fear we'll never quite agree when it comes to Jim Goodwin, and i don't want to derail what is the biggest match thread of the season.

kdyteejay · 09/5/2025 8:41 am

David_Blunkett wrote:
Finishing 6th, when we were sitting 9 points clear with 5 to play, is serious grounds for questioning the managers position, even from his most ardent fans.

It’s hardly the manager’s fault that players are injured.

MockChop · 09/5/2025 9:03 am

kdyteejay wrote:
David_Blunkett wrote:
Finishing 6th, when we were sitting 9 points clear with 5 to play, is serious grounds for questioning the managers position, even from his most ardent fans.
It’s hardly the manager’s fault that players are injured.

Playing Gallagher in a bounce game was his decision

Finn Seemann · 09/5/2025 9:08 am

redford_must_score wrote:
CCX2 2010 wrote:
Tek wrote:

A cautious one.

I meant we would see what he was made of in relation to the injury crisis in defence, because it might force him to employ a tactic that doesn't come naturally to him i.e. attack.

That's unfair imo, he built a squad to get out of the championship, which he done at the 1st attempt.

Most of the squad he assembled to fight for three points at Greenock on a wet Tuesday night are still here.

He shipped out 15 players this season overhauling the playing squad to keep us up, which he has done with ease.

The tines this season, where he has asked some of the guys to play attacking football, we have been found well short of the required level.

There have been multiple times this season he has been far too attacking and it cost us points-

Rangers at home, Dundee at home, Hearts and Hibs at home, Aberdeen away second time (went for 3 when he we could easily had 1).

There's lots more to it but it's lazy to just brandish him defensive without looking at all of the circumstances he has inherited.

Next season will be the first time imo we will have a chance to evaluate him in terms of style of play, but again, I just want to see us win.

Just need to look up the road for all the evidence you need.

Not wishing to get between the handbags 😁 but always up for a debate.
I think you're both correct.
I think Goodwin knew that survival would be built on a strong defensive set up and that's how he set us up in the early games.
I think he probably couldn't believe his luck when it actually delivered way beyond what maybe even he expected.
I think there have been times in that first 2/3 of the season when we deservedly looked a threat in the final third but in all honesty we never looked like a consistent fluid creative side even when getting the 3 points.
I'm guessing but I'm thinking Goodwin then decides to experiment with attack and it's rebounded spectacularly on us every time he's tried it. We just lack the quality in midfield and up front to play 433 and after the derby disaster he should have realised it was a non starter. But no, he goes 433 against Celtic! Muppetry in action.
If we finish 6th it would feel like a big let down. It's now up to JG and the players to make sure that doesn't happen because the fans have been behind the team in big numbers.

The test for next season is recruitment and that is throughout - at the back, in the middle and up front.
Not much to ask.

Agreed. We just don't have the personnel to be an attack based team. At best wing backs supplying crosses to the big guy is our current zenith. We seem to have gotten out of that habit as teams have learned to press higher on Strain and Ferry. Recruitment is key. The winter window has turned out to be a disaster so not confident that we'll be as good next year. Goodwin now has a platform though and next season is his next proper test. This year was about staying up. Consolidating next season is about building a team that is ours, achieves top six well, European competition and a cup-semi minimum. I can't say I'm over-confident.

Finn Seemann · 09/5/2025 9:12 am

David_Blunkett wrote:
Finishing 6th, when we were sitting 9 points clear with 5 to play, is serious grounds for questioning the managers position, even from his most ardent fans.

I think that is a fair point, but similarly I've watched us play St Mirren three times this year and each time the game could easily have swung the other way. I think we are, marginally, a better team than St Mirren so scraping 5th ahead of them actually looks about right. We'll do that.

Finn Seemann · 09/5/2025 9:23 am

Tek wrote:
CCX2 2010 wrote:

Of course ,just like I pointed out above, we struggle because we don't yet have the players.

He is pissing with the cock he's got.

.
He didn't have the players to beat Darvel, Spartans, QotS, Partick Thistle, Falkirk x2, Dundee?

All teams he's lost to in the Cup in the past 2 years or so.

Probably best to leave it there, i fear we'll never quite agree when it comes to Jim Goodwin, and i don't want to derail what is the biggest match thread of the season.

Goodwin has done well to get us to where we are from where we were. That is a fact. Whether he will be given the wherewithal or has the ability to take us to the next stage (or even keep us where we are) are questions that nobody can confidently answer. The reality though is changing managers now is just as risky (given our pull) as keeping him. For me stability trumps twisting. Goodwin can't rest on his laurels given he knows he has to rebuild again - he'll rightly be judged (soon enough) on whether he can.

We should look at David Gray at Hibs. They've stuck with him and their (much) superior squad has eventually come good. Is that down to Gray as a master tactician? Probably not. The reality is that track record in Scottish football management (bar Rodgers) is McInnes, Robinson and, whether you like it or not, Goodwin. Tony Docherty maybe but he's just failed the test that Goodwin has next season in terms of consolidating a top 6 finish. Careful what you wish for.

Last edited by Finn Seemann (09/5/2025 9:25 am)

kdyteejay · 09/5/2025 10:08 am

MockChop wrote:
kdyteejay wrote:
David_Blunkett wrote:
Finishing 6th, when we were sitting 9 points clear with 5 to play, is serious grounds for questioning the managers position, even from his most ardent fans.
It’s hardly the manager’s fault that players are injured.

Playing Gallagher in a bounce game was his decision

Injury can happen at any time. Should he not train?

CCX2 2010 · 09/5/2025 1:00 pm

Finn Seemann wrote:
redford_must_score wrote:
CCX2 2010 wrote:

That's unfair imo, he built a squad to get out of the championship, which he done at the 1st attempt.

Most of the squad he assembled to fight for three points at Greenock on a wet Tuesday night are still here.

He shipped out 15 players this season overhauling the playing squad to keep us up, which he has done with ease.

The tines this season, where he has asked some of the guys to play attacking football, we have been found well short of the required level.

There have been multiple times this season he has been far too attacking and it cost us points-

Rangers at home, Dundee at home, Hearts and Hibs at home, Aberdeen away second time (went for 3 when he we could easily had 1).

There's lots more to it but it's lazy to just brandish him defensive without looking at all of the circumstances he has inherited.

Next season will be the first time imo we will have a chance to evaluate him in terms of style of play, but again, I just want to see us win.

Just need to look up the road for all the evidence you need.

Not wishing to get between the handbags 😁 but always up for a debate.
I think you're both correct.
I think Goodwin knew that survival would be built on a strong defensive set up and that's how he set us up in the early games.
I think he probably couldn't believe his luck when it actually delivered way beyond what maybe even he expected.
I think there have been times in that first 2/3 of the season when we deservedly looked a threat in the final third but in all honesty we never looked like a consistent fluid creative side even when getting the 3 points.
I'm guessing but I'm thinking Goodwin then decides to experiment with attack and it's rebounded spectacularly on us every time he's tried it. We just lack the quality in midfield and up front to play 433 and after the derby disaster he should have realised it was a non starter. But no, he goes 433 against Celtic! Muppetry in action.
If we finish 6th it would feel like a big let down. It's now up to JG and the players to make sure that doesn't happen because the fans have been behind the team in big numbers.

The test for next season is recruitment and that is throughout - at the back, in the middle and up front.
Not much to ask.
Agreed. We just don't have the personnel to be an attack based team. At best wing backs supplying crosses to the big guy is our current zenith. We seem to have gotten out of that habit as teams have learned to press higher on Strain and Ferry. Recruitment is key. The winter window has turned out to be a disaster so not confident that we'll be as good next year. Goodwin now has a platform though and next season is his next proper test. This year was about staying up. Consolidating next season is about building a team that is ours, achieves top six well, European competition and a cup-semi minimum. I can't say I'm over-confident.

On the money.

David_Blunkett · 09/5/2025 3:04 pm

kdyteejay wrote:
David_Blunkett wrote:
Finishing 6th, when we were sitting 9 points clear with 5 to play, is serious grounds for questioning the managers position, even from his most ardent fans.
It’s hardly the manager’s fault that players are injured.

Well that's fair, however (and I quite like Goodwin, so this isn't just putting the boot in) we're down to the bare bones because of injury and recruitment shortcomings.

Maybe digressing a bit here but....

All ifs and buts at the moment, I would've bitten your hand off at the start of the season for this league position, still having a crack at Europe and maybe it's just a case of the season just levelling out, but to be in third/fourth for long chunks of the season, to drop to sixth would be deflating.

The talk from all at the club at the moment seems to be an acceptance that we're punching above our weight, lucky to be there etc

It comes over as quite defeatist, almost a hark back to McLean days and the corner shop v supermarket talk, 'just be glad to be here'

Just feel we should be a bit more positive about coming up, doing so well, talk ourselves up without being cocky, it's a bit annoying that you pick up a paper, click on a link and that's the narrative.

MockChop · 09/5/2025 3:12 pm

No training photos posted this week.

Maybe our defensive injury crisis isn’t as bad as we think. Jim keeping a couple cards close to the chest?

Tek · 09/5/2025 4:33 pm

Finn Seemann wrote:
Tek wrote:
CCX2 2010 wrote:

Of course ,just like I pointed out above, we struggle because we don't yet have the players.

He is pissing with the cock he's got.

.
He didn't have the players to beat Darvel, Spartans, QotS, Partick Thistle, Falkirk x2, Dundee?

All teams he's lost to in the Cup in the past 2 years or so.

Probably best to leave it there, i fear we'll never quite agree when it comes to Jim Goodwin, and i don't want to derail what is the biggest match thread of the season.

Goodwin has done well to get us to where we are from where we were. That is a fact. Whether he will be given the wherewithal or has the ability to take us to the next stage (or even keep us where we are) are questions that nobody can confidently answer. The reality though is changing managers now is just as risky (given our pull) as keeping him. For me stability trumps twisting. Goodwin can't rest on his laurels given he knows he has to rebuild again - he'll rightly be judged (soon enough) on whether he can.

We should look at David Gray at Hibs. They've stuck with him and their (much) superior squad has eventually come good. Is that down to Gray as a master tactician? Probably not. The reality is that track record in Scottish football management (bar Rodgers) is McInnes, Robinson and, whether you like it or not, Goodwin. Tony Docherty maybe but he's just failed the test that Goodwin has next season in terms of consolidating a top 6 finish. Careful what you wish for.

Finn, I'm not advocating for him to be sacked. Despite my reservations regards him, he has achieved our targets the past two seasons.

You are quite correct in that he will be strongly judged on this Summer's recruitment.

It's a chance to improve us. It's massive.

lifesanocean · 09/5/2025 6:31 pm

Ogren is a big part of the problem. The budget this season was seemingly much lower than people think (11th in the league I think) and the backing was poor in January yet again. Goodwin's been hamstrung by this. This needs to change in the summer.

Finn Seemann · 09/5/2025 6:51 pm

Tek wrote:
Finn Seemann wrote:
Tek wrote:

He didn't have the players to beat Darvel, Spartans, QotS, Partick Thistle, Falkirk x2, Dundee?

All teams he's lost to in the Cup in the past 2 years or so.

Probably best to leave it there, i fear we'll never quite agree when it comes to Jim Goodwin, and i don't want to derail what is the biggest match thread of the season.

Goodwin has done well to get us to where we are from where we were. That is a fact. Whether he will be given the wherewithal or has the ability to take us to the next stage (or even keep us where we are) are questions that nobody can confidently answer. The reality though is changing managers now is just as risky (given our pull) as keeping him. For me stability trumps twisting. Goodwin can't rest on his laurels given he knows he has to rebuild again - he'll rightly be judged (soon enough) on whether he can.

We should look at David Gray at Hibs. They've stuck with him and their (much) superior squad has eventually come good. Is that down to Gray as a master tactician? Probably not. The reality is that track record in Scottish football management (bar Rodgers) is McInnes, Robinson and, whether you like it or not, Goodwin. Tony Docherty maybe but he's just failed the test that Goodwin has next season in terms of consolidating a top 6 finish. Careful what you wish for.
Finn, I'm not advocating for him to be sacked. Despite my reservations regards him, he has achieved our targets the past two seasons.

You are quite correct in that he will be strongly judged on this Summer's recruitment.

It's a chance to improve us. It's massive.

Wholly agree - if he pulls it off (and I mean just doing the same again next season with maybe one cup run) then that would be phenomenal to be honest. It's a huge task.

Finn Seemann · 09/5/2025 6:54 pm

lifesanocean wrote:
Ogren is a big part of the problem. The budget this season was seemingly much lower than people think (11th in the league I think) and the backing was poor in January yet again. Goodwin's been hamstrung by this. This needs to change in the summer.

Doubt we'll see very much investment at all. The budget will be pretty much what he had last year plus the Watt 'windfall' and he'll maybe get some of the improved prize money to play with. Ogren is counting the days until someone meets half his valuation...

redford_must_score · 09/5/2025 8:05 pm

CCX2 2010 wrote:
Goodwin said in today's press conference that the only absentee on Saturday will be big Ross, he has been known to tell a few porkies in them meetings all the same.

That being the case- 3,5,2 with Sevelj back in the middle please.

Fingers crossed.
If we can get Sibbald Docherty and Svelj between the wing backs we have a decent chance.

Always_United · 09/5/2025 8:20 pm

I don't like to see people blame Mr Ogren. He hugely backed previous managers (especially the imposter) and has had little reward. Think how much he spent on guys like Fletcher, Behich and Levitt.

He's backed Jim well this season, maybe not to previous levels, but it's been a good budget.

BMT · 09/5/2025 8:58 pm

Always_United wrote:
I don't like to see people blame Mr Ogren. He hugely backed previous managers (especially the imposter) and has had little reward. Think how much he spent on guys like Fletcher, Behich and Levitt.

He's backed Jim well this season, maybe not to previous levels, but it's been a good budget.

Cmon now it’s an important time with a lot at stake and we are all a bit anxious to get a the victory we need to secure Europe so no need to try and wind people up.