Tekel Towers » Just how good are our young players?

Tek · 01/8/2021 10:51 pm

I ask because Tam Courts basically snubbed all of them from the starting XI today. This after Mickey Mellon more or less done the same to them most of last season.

Now they are the guys who see them in training day in day out. So if these boys aren't getting a look in ahead of the likes of Harkes, Palwett, Butcher or Clark then you have to wonder if...

1) Are they really as good as they are made out?

or if

2) They just aren't ready for first team football?

If it's the latter, you really have to question why the club have made a song n dance all Summer long about promoting youth. It's bizarre.

Rick Dagless · 01/8/2021 11:36 pm

Unfortunately I think it's the latter, If Tam isn't giving them a chance after being in charge of them last season then what hope have they got? Really hope I'm wrong though.

02/8/2021 8:09 am

We've now a bit of a quandary for the hard task ahead on Saturday.
Start with a similar experienced XI with damage limitation in mind?
Or throw in 2 or 3 young ones to test them out & risk a doing?
The Ayr United league cup tie will give an opportunity to mix things up a bit before we go to St Johnstone.

Morphman · 02/8/2021 8:35 am

Tek wrote:
I ask because Tam Courts basically snubbed all of them from the starting XI today. This after Mickey Mellon more or less done the same to them most of last season.

Now they are the guys who see them in training day in day out. So if these boys aren't getting a look in ahead of the likes of Harkes, Palwett, Butcher or Clark then you have to wonder if...

1) Are they really as good as they are made out?

or if

2) They just aren't ready for first team football?

If it's the latter, you really have to question why the club have made a song n dance all Summer long about promoting youth. It's bizarre.

I've said a few times on here that I used to watch United youth games fairly often, of which Mochrie and Chalmers stood out amongst the recent crop of young players. With that said, the only youth player who's broke through and played a decent number of games is Appere; the one who player who went out on loan to a junior team and absolutely smashed the gym for a year and came back an entirely different player.

When I see the likes of Chalmers and Mochrie come off the bench it's clear to see immediately that they are not physically ready to play against men. If you don't put in the kind of regime necessary to play professional football now, you won't succeed. Boys like Rankin and Dillon forged a career out of not being brilliant players but being some of the absolute fittest in the premiership/SPL. Our more technically gifted youngsters could go on to have great careers if they had a leg up in this regard, United seem to have completely disregarded physical development in this fashion, and I've no idea why.

Last edited by Morphman (02/8/2021 8:37 am)

Lilley01 · 02/8/2021 9:09 am

I think in terms of over-analysing the performance on other threads and assuming the youngsters have been completely snubbed on this one, you need to take into consideration that we were playing a new-look Aberdeen side that every single starter and sub would get a game in our starting XI.

Brown probably earns more than any 3 of our players combined. Ferguson linked with £2.5m+ move down south, Ramirez dropped money to come over etc etc. Throwing kids in to that game could have been ugly. Our season will not be defined by games at Pittodrie where only home fans are allowed in.

TC has spoken about the young players having to claim their place which i agree with - shouldn't be too difficult going forward!! But we'd be in a worse position if we just played young players because of their age. Make them work hard on and off the pitch and be there on merit. We're only one league game in.

In terms of how good they are generally - which is a slightly different question - Chalmers is the only one i would regularly expect to see in the team but even then, not sure how he fits the formation. I don't think Mochrie will make 10 starts this year. Neilson, K.Smith, Duffy look like they could supplement a mature team if there's an injury but they certainly don't look like there's a crop ready to all play together. We need signings!

Not really counting Freeman as a youth but definitely deserves a chance. Even if it kicks L.Smith up the arse and he realises he's allowed to run forward sometimes too.

02/8/2021 9:31 am

I'm playing the patience card sorry.
Five of our last seven games in the first quarter are against potential bottom sixers (St M, Fun, County, M'well, Livi).
That's why I'm saying give it to the end of the month by which time the experienced v the kids mix might be sorting itself out.
Factor in a new signing? Yeah maybe but will it be panic more than marquee?
Four games this month & grateful one of them is Ayr in the League Cup.
Fasten your seat belts & be patient.

More on topic, how good are our kids?
Meekison might have been the pick but he's out for a few weeks but that gives my second choice, Mochrie a chance. And if that doesn't work Stephen Glass must be available some time soon.
Can't see young defenders piling in when we have Mulgrew, Reynolds, Edwards, Liam Smith & Jamie Robson available. But I do remember a young lad David Narey getting thrown in & he did ok.

lifesanocean · 02/8/2021 9:55 am

Lewis Ferguson is only 7 months older than Logan Chalmers. Both 21. Ferguson has been in the full Scotland squad and played about 150 competitive games. Chalmers has played about 30 odd games, most of which from the bench. If Chalmers isn't ready for it physically and mentally now he's never going to be.

Agree that Mochrie and Chalmers look like they have the build of a fag paper. Ferguson was built like a tank yesterday (didn't stop him going down every time a Utd player went near him mind you).

It's time for the hype to stop from the club and be replaced with some action. Play these laddies if they are as good as we keep getting told or get them out on loan to free up space for new players who are battle ready.

Unfortunately, I still think our young players are for selling, not for playing. Interesting strategy though, trying to attract potential buyers through endless hype in the media, rather than ever actually showing off their talents on the park for any sustained period.

Last edited by lifesanocean (02/8/2021 8:23 pm)

Lilley01 · 02/8/2021 10:12 am

lifesanocean wrote:
Lewis Ferguson is only 7 months older than Logan Chalmers. Both 21. Ferguson has been in the full Scotland squad and played about 150 competitive games. Chalmers has played about 30 odd games, most of which from the bench. If Chalmers isn't ready for it physically and mentally now he's never going to be.

Agree that Mochrie and Chalmers look like they have the build of a fag paper. Ferguson was built like a tank yesterday (didn't stop him going down every time a Utd player went near him yesterday).

It's time for the hype to stop from the club and be replaced with some action. Play these laddies if they are as good as we keep getting told or get them out on loan to free up space for new players who are battle ready.

Unfortunately, I still think our young players are for selling, not for playing. Interesting strategy though, trying to attract potential buyers through endless hype in the media, rather than ever actually showing off their talents on the park for any sustained period.

Can't disagree. Put up or shut up. Ever since last years pre-season and "we are dundee united" a lot of the (planned) noise has seemed forced, cringey and artificial. Trying to shout the talk before we can crawl the walk.

No issues with setting out a vision but and communicating but it needs to be authentic and it needs to be backed up by action.

Beharder · 02/8/2021 10:13 am

There are far too many young (6-16) players taking on by clubs not just UTD these days.
Full squads of 16+players at all age groups.
The vast majority are just there to make up the numbers effectively shirt fillers.
In the old days (my youth) clubs had about 12 S Form signings across all age groups and let these boys develop in boys football.
Wee Jim used to sometimes insist that boys played a year above to try and toughen them up.
As others have mentioned so many of our young players look completely unprepared for the physical aspects of adult football.
We are trying to make the production of youth players a science, it's not.

Tek · 11/8/2021 12:35 am

Utd B Team humped 3-0 by Stenhousemuir tonight.

A team that included a few young players with 1st XI experience.

Kieran Freeman, Chris Mochrie, Flynn Duffy, Kai Fotheringham, Lewis Neilson and Darren Watson all starting.

Again, the narrative that Utd are ready to go forward with a young first team anytime soon seems, well frankly, bollocks.

Only Logan Chalmers seems ready for Dundee Utd first team football. And at 21 years old, he's not exactly a kid.

Billy_Hainey · 11/8/2021 8:53 am

For the 1st time (I think) on Setirday, I saw young Darren Watson play, and fir a youngster I thought he played no bad.

He got stuck in, and atleast 1 occasion he helped save our bacon.

Ken its only 1 gehm, but considering wha we were up against, I thought he made the cut.

Lilley01 · 11/8/2021 8:58 am

Tek wrote:
Utd B Team humped 3-0 by Stenhousemuir tonight.

A team that included a few young players with 1st XI experience.

Kieran Freeman, Chris Mochrie, Flynn Duffy, Kai Fotheringham, Lewis Neilson and Darren Watson all starting.

Again, the narrative that Utd are ready to go forward with a young first team anytime soon seems, well frankly, bollocks.

Only Logan Chalmers seems ready for Dundee Utd first team football. And at 21 years old, he's not exactly a kid.

Who's said we'll be putting out a team full of youngsters soon i.e. the short term?

Beharder · 11/8/2021 9:28 am

I did not see the game last night so I can't comment on that.
However being ready physically is very important in the Scottish game.
As they say everyone has a great plan until they get a smack in the puss.

Tek · 11/8/2021 9:29 am

Lilley01 wrote:
Tek wrote:
Utd B Team humped 3-0 by Stenhousemuir tonight.

A team that included a few young players with 1st XI experience.

Kieran Freeman, Chris Mochrie, Flynn Duffy, Kai Fotheringham, Lewis Neilson and Darren Watson all starting.

Again, the narrative that Utd are ready to go forward with a young first team anytime soon seems, well frankly, bollocks.

Only Logan Chalmers seems ready for Dundee Utd first team football. And at 21 years old, he's not exactly a kid.

Who's said we'll be putting out a team full of youngsters soon i.e. the short term?

Eh, the club. Been making a big song and dance about it all Summer. We sacked Mellon partly because he woulsn't get on board with the big plan.

And that came from the Horses mouth i.e. Asghar at the Fed Q+A.

Courts has also mentioned playing youth in several interviews.

Broonie31 · 11/8/2021 9:46 am

Tek wrote:
Lilley01 wrote:
Tek wrote:
Utd B Team humped 3-0 by Stenhousemuir tonight.

A team that included a few young players with 1st XI experience.

Kieran Freeman, Chris Mochrie, Flynn Duffy, Kai Fotheringham, Lewis Neilson and Darren Watson all starting.

Again, the narrative that Utd are ready to go forward with a young first team anytime soon seems, well frankly, bollocks.

Only Logan Chalmers seems ready for Dundee Utd first team football. And at 21 years old, he's not exactly a kid.

Who's said we'll be putting out a team full of youngsters soon i.e. the short term?
Eh, the club. Been making a big song and dance about it all Summer. We sacked Mellon partly because he woulsn't get on board with the big plan.

And that came from the Horses mouth i.e. Asghar at the Fed Q+A.

Courts has also mentioned playing youth in several interviews.

This a nonsense point in my opinion. There is no way we would play a full team of youngsters in the Premiership, we would be playing a mix of youth with experience so to write them all off when they played as a B team with every player being a young player is just ridiculous!!

Lilley01 · 11/8/2021 10:22 am

Tek wrote:
Lilley01 wrote:
Tek wrote:
Utd B Team humped 3-0 by Stenhousemuir tonight.

A team that included a few young players with 1st XI experience.

Kieran Freeman, Chris Mochrie, Flynn Duffy, Kai Fotheringham, Lewis Neilson and Darren Watson all starting.

Again, the narrative that Utd are ready to go forward with a young first team anytime soon seems, well frankly, bollocks.

Only Logan Chalmers seems ready for Dundee Utd first team football. And at 21 years old, he's not exactly a kid.

Who's said we'll be putting out a team full of youngsters soon i.e. the short term?
Eh, the club. Been making a big song and dance about it all Summer. We sacked Mellon partly because he woulsn't get on board with the big plan.

And that came from the Horses mouth i.e. Asghar at the Fed Q+A.

Courts has also mentioned playing youth in several interviews.

Short term plan is to supplement team with youngsters if they’re ready. Longer term plan is to have a conveyor belt. Nothing about chucking numerous young players in all at once

Finn Seemann · 11/8/2021 10:26 am

I suspect Tek is intentionally overstating it, but so are the club the other way. If we truly did have a conveyor belt of youth talent that is going to save the club financially and give Mr O his return, I would expect that talent (including several players with first team experience) to be able to hold their own against Stenhousemuir. By the sounds of it we were never in the game. We are talking about boys who are spending all of their time at one of the best Academies in the country with some of the best coaches being handed their backsides by a bunch of guys for whom football is a hobby. I'm not being super critical of the boys, but am being super critical of the expectation that they are going to be the saviours of this football club (as per "the Plan").

WeeDude_83 · 11/8/2021 11:37 am

Hibs B team lost
St.Johnstone B team lost.
St.mirren B team won on penalties.

It’s not that the players aren’t good enough. It’s that it’s teams of boys vs teams of men.
It’s boys who have a cushty week vs boys who work full time, train 2/3 times a week ontop and are remunerated with small appearance fees and bonuses.

Let’s not condemn our kids before most even see first team action.

Btw, thought Chalmers was good vs Rangers.

dufc2019 · 11/8/2021 11:39 am

if you didnt watch the game you cant comment, i did and they actually played ok at times, team was too young to have a chance of going thru, needed Appere Glass Chalmers Meekison , some of those boys were 16 last night

Shedtastic · 11/8/2021 11:41 am

It's the bullshit spin and propaganda from Asghar and Goldie etc that makes fans expectations of the young players high.

Lilley01 · 11/8/2021 11:47 am

Is he? i don't think so.

This is a long-term approach to fully develop players and ensure they're ready to be embedded. This pressure to see more youngers asap is doing no one any good. Not the club, the team or the players them selves. To me, it's just people trying to play on negativity. It's not a magic wand approach.

And on that point, well played TC for putting Sprole on for Chalmers rather than a younger player because his energy was what that game needed at that time and was rewarded with a (fortuitous) assist. The Watson sub was also right. There's a clamber for Mochrie to play. Watson appears quicker and hungrier to do the backwards running. So it's not youngsters at all costs and no one has ever said it was.

This is long-term - Give the players time to develop and play them when the time is right. This talk of "The Plan" and "saviours" is nonsense. It's pointless, negative revisionism of a sensible plan that is ultimately around, stop buying shite, spend more time actually developing younger players, give them a chance when it comes calling. I really struggle with how any United fan can have a problem with that. Except it's not a problem with that, it's a problem of who crafted the plan - therefore it MUST be nonsense

Finn Seemann · 11/8/2021 11:49 am

dufc2019 wrote:
if you didnt watch the game you cant comment, i did and they actually played ok at times, team was too young to have a chance of going thru, needed Appere Glass Chalmers Meekison , some of those boys were 16 last night

You can comment based on reports and scoreline, but agree that there is no substitute for watching it. I would have thought that the team put out would have had enough to compete better with Stenny. The point is not about them it's about the constant reference to the conveyor belt of talent that we are seeing little evidence of being significantly better than what we produced before the huge investment in the Academy. We punted a competent manager based on his inability to bring through this pipeline of talent but I still don't see any real evidence of it. I like the sound of 'the Plan', but the reality seems to point to 'the Plan' being a pipedream, but that's the vision that has been sold to the owner and woe betide anyone who questions it....

WeeDude_83 · 11/8/2021 11:50 am

Lilley01 wrote:
Is he? i don't think so.

This is a long-term approach to fully develop players and ensure they're ready to be embedded. This pressure to see more youngers asap is doing no one any good. Not the club, the team or the players them selves. To me, it's just people trying to play on negativity. It's not a magic wand approach.

And on that point, well played TC for putting Sprole on for Chalmers rather than a younger player because his energy was what that game needed at that time and was rewarded with a (fortuitous) assist. The Watson sub was also right. There's a clamber for Mochrie to play. Watson appears quicker and hungrier to do the backwards running. So it's not youngsters at all costs and no one has ever said it was.

This is long-term - Give the players time to develop and play them when the time is right. This talk of "The Plan" and "saviours" is nonsense. It's pointless, negative revisionism of a sensible plan that is ultimately around, stop buying shite, spend more time actually developing younger players, give them a chance when it comes calling. I really struggle with how any United fan can have a problem with that. Except it's not a problem with that, it's a problem of who crafted the plan - therefore it MUST be nonsense

Spot on. I think some are too far down the path with Asghar that there’s no way they’ll ever give credit when due.

Tangy · 11/8/2021 11:52 am

Boys v men is a difficult game to win. We might think Spennymoor 'aren't very good' however - they are a team full of seasoned professionals who are physically on a different scale to our young lads - which of us was fully grown at 16, 17. Secondly, you can have all the skill in the world but if you don't have the experience of playing games at that level, you won't have the knowledge of how to deal with that side of the game.

I'd guess the team learned as much in 1 game as they did in 10 games of development league football - its just a pity we couldn't put out a team which could get through and get another 90 against a Proper mens team.

If we want to gauge how our youth system is doing, perhaps a better guide would be to compare how many youths we have representing the country at all age ranges. For instance, we may only have 1 at u21 level but if we have 2 at u19, 3 at u16 and 4 at u14, you could surmise that the youth system is starting to see results. Whether we see that in the first team or not in the next few years may be a different argument.

There would be further arguments to compare number of representatives at each level against other similar levelled academies too. For instance if Aberdeen have 3 representatives at u14 and we have 6 then it could surmised that our academy is working better than there's. Especially if this is representative across the age ranges...who's bored this afternoon and fancies doing some counting? 🤣

Finn Seemann · 11/8/2021 11:53 am

Lilley01 wrote:
Is he? i don't think so.

This is a long-term approach to fully develop players and ensure they're ready to be embedded. This pressure to see more youngers asap is doing no one any good. Not the club, the team or the players them selves. To me, it's just people trying to play on negativity. It's not a magic wand approach.

And on that point, well played TC for putting Sprole on for Chalmers rather than a younger player because his energy was what that game needed at that time and was rewarded with a (fortuitous) assist. The Watson sub was also right. There's a clamber for Mochrie to play. Watson appears quicker and hungrier to do the backwards running. So it's not youngsters at all costs and no one has ever said it was.

This is long-term - Give the players time to develop and play them when the time is right. This talk of "The Plan" and "saviours" is nonsense. It's pointless, negative revisionism of a sensible plan that is ultimately around, stop buying shite, spend more time actually developing younger players, give them a chance when it comes calling. I really struggle with how any United fan can have a problem with that. Except it's not a problem with that, it's a problem of who crafted the plan - therefore it MUST be nonsense

So if it is a long term plan and time will be taken to properly embed players (which I agree with) why did we punt a competent manager on the basis he hadn't signed up to the vision when evidence shows that he was blooding and taking time to embed that talent? A punting that will have cost us decent cash too.

Last edited by Finn Seemann (11/8/2021 11:58 am)