SlatefordArab wrote:

Morphman wrote:

SlatefordArab wrote:

Give me being ruled by Germany...... and thinking they are the superior race over every other country on earth any day of the week

I suggest you ask a few Greeks whether the Germans are forward thinking and don't consider themselves superior. Very much in the eye of the beholder that one.

 
I suppose I could ask Poland, France and most of Europe too then?

 
Of course, that's your perogative. The point still stands though, German political influence may not rest on some rose tinted view of 'the good ol' days' but their political class are less than loved abroad. German arrogance is just a different kind of arrogance but there is plenty of it.

I would been keen to know what your opinion is on the EU's reaction to state led violence in catalonia after their failed Independence declaration.

tobias smollett wrote:

   
Poland and France are net beneficiaries of the EU.

That's only half true, Tobias.
 

To get back to tho original point  I can see the logic off being in the UK & the EU.  I can also see the logic off being out of the UK & EU.
However all the arguments put forward by the SNP why it would be beneficial to leave the UK, gain control of finances, immigration policy, currency ect they plan to give it all away and more immediately to the EU.  What's the point in creating a border/ trading barrier with by far our biggest export market.

SlatefordArab wrote:

Morphman wrote:

SlatefordArab wrote:

 
I suppose I could ask Poland, France and most of Europe too then?

 
Of course, that's your perogative. The point still stands though, German political influence may not rest on some rose tinted view of 'the good ol' days' but their political class are less than loved abroad. German arrogance is just a different kind of arrogance but there is plenty of it.

I would been keen to know what your opinion is on the EU's reaction to state led violence in catalonia after their failed Independence declaration.

Funny you should ask that as up until a few weeks back I'd been working with a guy from Barcelona for a few years and we've had lots of chat about Catalonia and Scotland and the comparison's between their relationships with their respective countries.

Of course the way the EU dealt with that wasn't something I would agree with but as my ex-colleague (who ultimately supports independence for Catalonia) was always keen to point out to me, there were lots of independence people in Catalonia that did not agree with the way that referendum was put together and held.  The Catalonia referendum situation is probably not as black and white as people in the UK might think.

It seems there are a couple of posters in here that seem to have taken my comment re Germany like I was saying everything to do with the EU was perfect.  I was merely making my disdain known for Westminster, THOL, those utter cretins the Royal Family and everything else that is associated with the British (English) establishment.  Cheers.

 
I didn't say you thought everything was perfect, I asked because it informs me of your opinion regarding what's usually seen as the unsavoury nature of the EU. FWIW I'm not keen on the HOL or the Monarchy either.

My point still remains, simply exchanging Britain for the EU doesn't really do anything. Sure you might get a bit more competence in Gov, you might even agree more with the Agenda.

The fact remains that an Independent Scotland however will break away from its number 1 trading party and seek to form a new relationship, while moving closer to other partners. If we joined the EU where does it leave Scotland with England? Does the EU/Brexit deal (still in progress) get changed again, how many more years of upheaval will we have.

I firmly believed in 2014 that we held all the cards and indy was the way forward, after seeing the Brexit shambles; on top of my changing political views, I don't think you'll ever persuade me that Independence would be good for Scotland.



PS: Sorry for the long time replying, had to log out after that result last night before I threw the phone off the wall 

Last edited by Morphman (03/10/2020 12:44 pm)

PatReilly wrote:

I suppose for many it will come down to whether they want Independence which will determine which way they vote in May 2021. As previously stated, for me it’s not a single issue such as Independence which influences my vote, getting rid of Nuclear Royal Lords triumvirate and their associated powers would be acceptable for the present.
 
Given the Scottish Parliament passed a motion introduced by the SNP in January this year to endorse a new independence referendum, and last month started setting out their draft bill covering the timescale and potential question for that referendum, it might be that they are the only show in town for me.

Had it not been for the Covid crisis, I suspect the SNP v UK Gov on the matter of the second referendum would have been the major show in town over the summer, in Scotland

 

At the risk of repeating myself Independence is not what the SNP are offering.

PatReilly wrote:

I suppose for many it will come down to whether they want Independence which will determine which way they vote in May 2021. As previously stated, for me it’s not a single issue such as Independence which influences my vote, getting rid of Nuclear Royal Lords triumvirate and their associated powers would be acceptable for the present.
 
Given the Scottish Parliament passed a motion introduced by the SNP in January this year to endorse a new independence referendum, and last month started setting out their draft bill covering the timescale and potential question for that referendum, it might be that they are the only show in town for me.

Had it not been for the Covid crisis, I suspect the SNP v UK Gov on the matter of the second referendum would have been the major show in town over the summer, in Scotland

Genuine question Pat, and if you don't have an opinion that's fine, not claiming an immense knowledge here myself. If an independent Scotland joined NATO, and were told as part of 'our share' to keep Faslane as a port for NATO nuclear weapons (probably US and/or what's already there currently in the British fleet), what do you think we as country should do?

I can't say I'd been keen on an indy Scotland will little or no armed forces, nor in NATO. If continued nuclear storage were the price we paid as part of an Indy Scotland would you find this acceptable?

Last edited by Morphman (04/10/2020 3:55 pm)

Morphman wrote:

 
Genuine question Pat, and if you don't have an opinion that's fine, not claiming an immense knowledge here myself. If an independent Scotland joined NATO, and were told as part of 'our share' to keep Faslane as a port for NATO nuclear weapons (probably US and/or what's already there currently in the British fleet), what do you think we as country should do?

I can't say I'd been keen on an indy Scotland will little or no armed forces, nor in NATO. If continued nuclear storage were the price we paid as part of an Indy Scotland would you find this acceptable?

It'd depend on who took on power following an election in the event of Independence. I'd like to think each party would make their position clear on nuclear weapons and NATO involvment.

For me, as a lapsed member of CND, I wouldn't be supportive of any party which wanted to retain nuclear weapons, whether that was a condition of NATO membership or otherwise.

However, I accept that voters would be split on the matter, with a high proportion fearful of leaving ourselves open to unforseen attack.

Beharder wrote:

PatReilly wrote:

Beharder wrote:

 

At the risk of repeating myself Independence is not what the SNP are offering.

I'd say it is. It'll then be up to the Scottish electorate to vote for a party of their choice, which will offer manifestoes, some including application for the EU.

In any case, perhaps the majority would rather be in the EU than the UK.

 

I would certainly make you correct in your last point.  Although I voted for the UK to remain in the EU I would not vote for Scotland outside the UK to join the EU.
The Scottish fishing industry would just have to bend over and take it, French & Spanish trawlers coming to a port near you.

 

Always find it quite weird that fishing is brought up when the UKs relationship with the EU is being discussed.  I believe fishing is a minuscule part of the UK economy?  Funny how it’s never considered any other time.

Isn’t the fishing industry in Scotland a cabal that is controlled by 3 or 4 millionaire families?  Sure they’ll cope if Scotland was to be outside the UK and in the EU.

Last edited by SlatefordArab (06/10/2020 5:54 pm)

Finn Seemann wrote:

Aye I'm sure that the millionaire families will be OK.  Suspect the others in the industry will be screwed though.  Don't worry we can run a country without a functioning economy and 50% of folk employed by the state.  What could go wrong.

Is it a bad thing to be employed by the state, Finn? If you are worried about workers in the fishing industry potentially being screwed, then you might be concerned for people in state employment working in sectors such as the NHS, where creeping privatisation hasn't been a success, recent evidence being the failure of Track and Trace.

Generally it's accepted the NHS is understaffed, and the political solution of privatisation only lines the pockets of 'millionaire families'. 

And there's Rishi Sunak and Therese Coffey only the other day suggesting that people who have lost employment in the private entertainment, leisure and hospitality industries should become careworkers (although they perhaps favour them becoming private sector care providers, to be fair. No money in it for them otherwise).

We're moving things a bit off Tek's topic I suppose Finn, but it looks like you and I won't really agree on the importance of state ownership and/or private intervention. 

Nonetheless, you are making sweeping statements in an attempt to turn folk away from the idea of Independence, such as "50% or more of working people are employed by the state" (following Independence) which isn't factual but an opinion of the ways things may go.

"The private sector has always built their buildings" in regard to hospitals is another which is only a development since New Labour, and one that has come at a heavy cost to the public purse. These PPP/PFI structures, throughout the public sector, have had massive issues due to their poor quality construction.

But it's hardly worth debating it here, we've possibly almost always voted differently, and won't change each other's political standpoint on a messageboard.   

Beharder wrote:

Scotland already has an ageing population. For almost the 1st time since stats began the average lifespan is going down. Add in 2019 was the lowest level of births in Scotland in recorded history, there are some major problems ahead.
fewer people will inevitably lead to a shrinking economy and financial hardship.

The SG need to be honest about this instead of saying it's all Westminsters fault.

Is your argument that we should trust the future Tories in Westminster rather than Scottish politicians based in Holyrood?
 

Beharder wrote:

Political allegiances don't really come into it Pat.
It's feasible in the future to see a Tory controlled Holyrood as the gap between the haves and the have nots continues to grow. Fertile grounds for the political left and right.

The honest debate we are not having is in an 'independent ' Scotland we would notice no difference except all Union Jack's would be replaced by Saltires. The romantic patriotic freedom- destiny stuff is of no inretest to me. Whether we are run by the London or the Edinburgh elites will make no difference to the have nots.

However I see no benefit in creating a border/ tariff barrier with by far (60%+) our biggest trading partner.

Aye it's possible that the Tories would in a future Independent Scotland have control over Holyrood, but it's been 65 years since they gained a majority in Scotland in terms of votes (50.1%), and even then that was an amalgamation of two parties, the National Liberal & Conservatives, and the Unionists. There is little chance of a Tory takeover in Scotland, if we see the trend of the last 65 years continue. You have to go back to 1931 for a similar result: 89 years.

Beharder, the bit I've underlined, that's not 'honest debate', that's you stating your fear as a fact. 

I agree with you about the patriotic 'freedom destiny stuff', for me it's on a par with the nationalist jingoism down south which rallies folk into thinking the politicians are doing a solid job protecting 'Britishness': you'll note how often Johnson has recently repeated 'freedom' and 'the war' in his speeches.

Finally, only after Independence would the remainder of the UK become a trading partner of Scotland. Presently, we're all in it together, with individual nations only having estimates of trade attributed to them by civil servants.