Totally agree mate,  although I thought Darling was so negative, must have said there's no going back at least half a dozen times.  Salmond trying to be a comedian instead of hitting the positives home hard

TBH they're 2 shit politicians anyway, should of put 1 of the debates we have in work on the tele, that'd be far better viewing.

All good posts, my guess is that Darling & Co will be the happier of the two sides though after last night's performance as they appear to be quite a few heads in front at the polls and Salmond & Co couldn't make the breakthrough with any telling attacks.
I made a conscious decision years ago and this debate was never going to change my mind, however I was hoping it would change the mind of some and make the minds up of the other's but i doubt it has. With this political game now going into stoppage time only an all out attack from the home side or a self imploding sub from the visitors can change the result imho. Now whars thon wee beastie when you need him!

I made up my mind before the campaign started. Only watched 10 mins of debate. Turned it over to the Sevco game instead.

stobievulture wrote:

There's nae debate needed...its simple..
 Do we Scots want our country to be run by Scots for Scots or run by eton school educated English
 
 Its as simple as that

 
The currency thing is a red herring as well. There is no way that once negotiations start that we wouldn't get a currency union. We have lots of aces once the negotiations start. Nuclear weapons, renewable energy and oil.

I won't forget Labour's part in this. Them and their Tory mates can get to fuck. I'll not he voting for them ever again regardless of the result of this referendum.

huntedbyafreak wrote:

stobievulture wrote:

There's nae debate needed...its simple..
 Do we Scots want our country to be run by Scots for Scots or run by eton school educated English
 
 Its as simple as that

 
The currency thing is a red herring as well. There is no way that once negotiations start that we wouldn't get a currency union. We have lots of aces once the negotiations start. Nuclear weapons, renewable energy and oil.

I won't forget Labour's part in this. Them and their Tory mates can get to fuck. I'll not he voting for them ever again regardless of the result of this referendum.

 
You're spot on regarding currency union, although I'd rather we went the whole road and went on our own so we really can completely control our own finances. 

I've always voted labour, but scottish labours stance is very disappointing.  Can't stick Salmond and will never ever vote Tory so it's a difficult decision going forward.

huntedbyafreak wrote:

I agree about your point about going on our own currency wise. Think that they've taken this stance to not scare voters away. UK/Scotland are naturally conservative (with a small c). Think they had to say we'd keep certain things to make it palatable to don't knows.

As far as Labour go though they have spent their time belittling the ability of Scots too govern themselves. Too small etc. At least you know you are with the Tories. They just fuck you over. I'll never be voting for Labour again.

I kind of hope that if it's a No vote in Sept that the Tories win the General Election in 2016 with a majority. That's what we'll deserve.

I'm a bitter bastard though

Good post L,until the last bit (though i think you're probably being a bit facetious knowing your posting style).

My biggest fear is we vote NO and the Tories then win the next election(i believe both will happen).

They will fucking punish Scotland,make no mistake.

The 45% of Scots who have the nous,savvy and bravery to vote YES certainly don't deserve that.

Whatever happens Scotland is going to be a right mess for years. A No vote will significantly damage the Scottish psyche and there will be a lot of finger pointing.

If the No campaign thinks that a No vote means and end to this they are kidding themselves on.

It's never going away. If it's over 40% then that's an awful lot of people who are majorly pissed off with the status quo

I am fucking disgusted with the role of the Labour Party in this whole debate.

 

huntedbyafreak wrote:

I agree about your point about going on our own currency wise. Think that they've taken this stance to not scare voters away. UK/Scotland are naturally conservative (with a small c). Think they had to say we'd keep certain things to make it palatable to don't knows.

For me the currency question is the one really BIG question, BIGGER than all other issues. 

Bottom line is that an independent Scotland will enter into a shaky currency alliance with the rest of the UK/England. Of course, the Bank of England will not cut off its own nose just to spite Scotland but we will be very much the junior partner in this alliance with next to no say at all on monetary policy. Furthermore, an independent Scottish government would pay 1% more interest per annum on its borrowing costs. Why a government should need to borrow at all, when it could simply issue it's own currency might well be a pertinent point, but somehow, I doubt that any of the current crop pro-independence political establishment would even dare to entertain such a trend bucking concept as debt free government spending, so 1% (minimum) extra interest per year it would be. Doesn't sound like a lot, but when you are talking about 100s of billions, it is a damn lot. Furthermore, there is likely to be a lot of capital flight from an independent Scotland. I for one, will move a certain amount of savings that I have to foreign bank account in a more stable ceratin economy. The sort of funds that I have control of (not very much) are hardly going to derail the Scottish economy should I choose to move a portion of it to a foreign monetary system, but that isn't true of all individuals who will take such measures to secure their wealth, and ceratinly won't be true if their is a mass exodus of Joe Bloggs' capital into English or Euro denominated accounts.

Simply because everyone that I talk to seems to be set to vote Yes, I suspect this vote could really go through. It also seems that there is a strata of the political establishment  who actually want it to go through. For example, an independent Scotland would certainly be dancing to the tune of the EU, which is constantly trying to undermine obstinate and awkward power blocks that stand in its way of political hegemony in Europe, the UK being one of the major targets that needs softenend up and whipped into more compliant shape.

Of course, I am surrounded by people voting yes because I generally congregate with males in their mid-late 30's and I have to say that I haven't heard a convincing logical argument for independence from anyone of them. What I have heard is some good ideological arguments and a whole lot of emotional based Braveheartesque arguments, but nothing that appeals to the realist nor the pragamatist in me. On the otherhand, I haven't really heard anything good from the No campaign either, difference there is that the No campaign is the Status Quo, and we have a pretty good idea already what that involves.

I won't be voting. I will be working on a vessel watching the results come in. Even if I was around to vote, I still wouldn't be voting. I suspect however, that the Yesses just might come up trumps, which will be be followed by an uncomfortable transition period brought about by the economic realities of being the new little runty kid on the block, that the red blooded and proud armchair William Wallaces might not have factored into their largely emotional reasoning for advocating independence.


 

TEK wrote:

Totally disagree with that sentiment tbh Matt that it's 'armchair William Wallace's' and 'Braveheartesque' arguements which the YES campaign are putting forth.

For the vast vast majority of YES voters this is not about a desire to be seperate from a union with England or disliking English people or anything as idiotic or  pointless as that.

For me and most other people i hear of who are voting YES,on social media and in real life,voting for Independence is absolutely about Scottish people getting the Government they vote for in the majority ruling them 100% of the time.

It's also about (for me) wanting better for the country.Why can't we strive for better for this country ?We have brought so much to the civilised World yet over the decades our country has lost all self-belief,we are subservient,unconfident (hence the defiant streak in most scots) and really we all sub-consciously have a 'glass ceiling' mentality as Scots,whereby,we feel if we really want to achieve anything in life or have a top career we have to move away from our own country and move 500 miles south.

I want us to strive to be better.And that's not 'Braveheartesq' sentimentality,that's just the hope,the desire that when my son grows up he feels he can do whatever he wants to do,be the best he can be in whatever field in HIS OWN COUNTRY.The country he was born and raised in.

I didn't mean Braveheartesque in a tartan short-bread tin English hating bigoted way, but in more of a red blooded and emotionally proud patriotic way. I meant it in the sort of way that you demonstrated in your post above, and the sort of way that I am hearing and seeing all the time.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of an independent Scotland, standing on it's own two feet, not being involved in corrupt Zionist war games, getting the the political culture/ethos that it votes for, etc, but idealism and realism don't make for a happy couple and generally, the realism has the tendency to snuff out the idealism.

I will say again, I really honestly believe that there is a strong chance that this is going to go through, but that it might entail a reality of a harsh transition phase that nobody will be prepared for and that nobody will like........(with end result being us ending up in the economic prison of the Eurozone, after a big bun fight over the GBP, which we will lose).
 

I also expect that we will get an option further down the line to vote on our currency.
 
I personally would have liked an independent Scotland to start with their own currency, pegged to the pound but I suspect that it was maybe too risk a strategy for the Yes campaign to go with at this time, with hindsight and after the continual forcing down our throats of the “you’re no getting the poond” from the No campaign and MSM I think that may be the Yes campaigns downfall.
 

I don't get your analogy, also don't agree with anything you've written in this topic, or the Ciftci one for that matter so probably best just leave it at that.

I doubt we're on the same page with any view, which is fine, difference of opinions are healthy for every society, including virtual ones.