Finn Seemann wrote:

My comments on McMann above (before his departure was announced) stand, but if anyone witnessed his performance at Spartans then you know that he is not top league standard.

A bit harsh as McMann also played some good games in the top league. He has had a couple of poor games this season and his individual errors have cost us, but in his defence, it's a team game and if the players in your immediate vicinity (last season) are Birighitti, a confidence-less Edwards, a confidence-less Middleton and a couldn't-be-arsed Levitt, Maurice Malpas would struggle to look decent. I think McMann could do a job as a squad player in the Premier, but maybe that's what he was offered and maybe he didn't fancy it - which is absolutely fair enough. We could bring in better, and there's better out there, but there's no guarantee we will. But thanks and the very best of luck to him. He was a good pro.

Morphman wrote:

The problem is that instead of teaching players to become better football players, the academy in recent years has become a hotbed of focus on "technical ability".

The purpose of the academy is to take young kids and teach them the technical aspects of the game without which they won't make it in the modern game. That happens between the ages of around 8 and maybe 14 or 15. By that time they've had tens of thousands of touches of the ball with the correct part of the correct foot with the correct body position and the correct head position and so on. It's a critical part of developing young players, and youth coaching licences are all about developing coaches to do exactly that.

But by the time the kids are around 14, it should start to become apparent which position(s) they are best suited for and where they'll contribute most to the team. At that point, I think they should start to be getting more focussed coaching, and by 16, they need to be playing in games where they're exposed to the physicality and speed of senior football, learning how to use the technical expertise that they clearly have and translate that into what you need to do to win a game. I think this is maybe where our academy hasn't done quite as well as it should have done over the past few years - but it might not be entirely their fault. The lack of a reserve league means these lads are either playing for an academy team, they're on the bench for the first team, or they're out on loan. The first two of those are not ideal. Academy games are more "technical" than realistic, while first team exposure will be too limited to really enhance development. So you put lads out on loan and hope it helps get them over the line. Some make it to Premier level but most won't. Big Ross Graham, Kai, maybe Miller Thompson - they might get there. Mochrie, Archie, Duffy - good technical players but haven't quite made it to the top level. Glass strikes me as a bit Gauld-like, in that Scottish football isn't his stage. Nobody's fault. I honestly thought a couple of years back that Lewis Neilson and Ross Graham could be our future centre-half pairing if they both buckled down, and had Asghar not dropped the ball, maybe Neilson would have become better than he is now, But over all, if we can bring 3 players to Premier standard out of a group of 10 academy players, I think that's a pretty decent return.

I can see in Ross Graham and Miller Thompson the mentality and dig and willingness to get down and dirty that's needed to win. A bit less apparent in Kai, though playing wide is a unique position where you're relying on your team mates to involve you in the game. Maybe wide isn't his best position - he doesn't have explosive pace. But he's smart, and he might have more success playing further inside, up top. Bottom line, though, is the academy is having some success IMO.

The above is also why I didn't want another "technical director" as our manager. Another Liam Fox or another "Tam" Courts, or that boy who got the Hearts gig for a short time that used to do the "football out of a box" training stuff with our youth players. Great at developing young players, but they don't know how to win a game (Courts got lucky IMO), and that's what's missing from too many of our academy graduates. As a good ex-player, Goodwin knows how to win a game (again IMO) and, more importantly, he knows the sort of players you need in your team to do it. He also comes across as an intelligent guy and an effective communicator, and he seems to know which players need an arm round the shoulder and which need a kick up the arse.

I can't think of a manager since Wee Jim who has been at enough of a distance from the players (i.e. he's not their pal) and has been willing to go beyond sentimentality and make tough decisions. Maybe Mixu, but he had little to work with, in a club that was on its knees.

So, for me, leave the academy in place. But look at adding in a much more effective transition process, which might mean hiring someone specifically to do that. Dave Bowman has the playing experience and absolutely has the mentality, but I'm not sure he has the communication skills as a coach that are required to develop those players optimally. Great guy to have around purely for attitude and mentality, but he might need to be working for someone of similar standing who communicates better. A Jim McInally type, maybe?

Sorry for the long post. Got a bit carried away!
 

Tangy wrote:

Finn. I'm usually one ti be reasonable (more than maybe I should.) And give people the benefit of the doubt. I don't blame him for getting a big money move and grabbing it with both hands. But I've never seen a keeper make so many howlers in 1 season.

The amount of potential draws which became losses and even a few wins that became draws due to his howlers is unreal. I hate to think about it - but stevie may tackling him on the goal line for a start.

Keeper is the hardest position where almost every error is magnified - but that's his job.

If it makes you feel better he probably has as strong feelings for united as I've got for him.

Either way, I'd probably focus on thanking the others for their efforts.

 
He was a God awful keeper,but he was also a fucking prick. Liking those tweets from celtic players right after the most hurtful and humiliating results in all my time watching United was fucking unforgivable! Fuck him,hope he never plays again,unless it's across the road! 🤣🤣

Arabdownsouth wrote:

Tangy wrote:

Finn. I'm usually one ti be reasonable (more than maybe I should.) And give people the benefit of the doubt. I don't blame him for getting a big money move and grabbing it with both hands. But I've never seen a keeper make so many howlers in 1 season.

The amount of potential draws which became losses and even a few wins that became draws due to his howlers is unreal. I hate to think about it - but stevie may tackling him on the goal line for a start.

Keeper is the hardest position where almost every error is magnified - but that's his job.

If it makes you feel better he probably has as strong feelings for united as I've got for him.

Either way, I'd probably focus on thanking the others for their efforts.

 
He was a God awful keeper,but he was also a fucking prick. Liking those tweets from celtic players right after the most hurtful and humiliating results in all my time watching United was fucking unforgivable! Fuck him,hope he never plays again,unless it's across the road! 🤣🤣

 

Hear hear.

Clearly some of them were expected as they did not kick a ball for us recently or this season at all.

with some of the others we will not know if they were offered a deal but declined to accept it or got a better offer somewhere else - maybe McMann falls into that category.

With the younger players i think the contribution of Kai and Miller Thomson have probably meant they were retained and others released.  lets face it if you are not forcing your way into the team in the lower championship then it is less likely in the league above.  I was surprised when i realised that Middleton is only around 6 months older than Glass, huge difference in contribution this season.

In some ways the brutal releasing of young players is required, part of our problem has been we have retained too many of our you players who never seem to become first team regulars and just become bench warmers which in turn slows down access for those younger than them to emerge.  In most clubs bringing through 2 young players a year is a good return and if you have exceptional talents possibly more.  Ultimately you need to have an opportunity for the academy products to emerge and that is where we have been poor in recent years and offered contracts to players who probably didnt warrant them.

My biggest hope now is that we have some incoming players lined up already and are not going in to the season with a lot of gaps to fill in the squad and signing loan deals on the last day of the transfer window.

RogerTheAlien wrote:

Wouldn’t be overly bothered if we added Cudjoe, Holt and Miller Thompson to the list.

Not bothered about Cudjoe, but Holt is OK if back up and Thompson clearly is young enough to continue improving.  

Canadian Arab wrote:

Finn Seemann wrote:

My comments on McMann above (before his departure was announced) stand, but if anyone witnessed his performance at Spartans then you know that he is not top league standard.

A bit harsh as McMann also played some good games in the top league. He has had a couple of poor games this season and his individual errors have cost us, but in his defence, it's a team game and if the players in your immediate vicinity (last season) are Birighitti, a confidence-less Edwards, a confidence-less Middleton and a couldn't-be-arsed Levitt, Maurice Malpas would struggle to look decent. I think McMann could do a job as a squad player in the Premier, but maybe that's what he was offered and maybe he didn't fancy it - which is absolutely fair enough. We could bring in better, and there's better out there, but there's no guarantee we will. But thanks and the very best of luck to him. He was a good pro.

Morphman wrote:

The problem is that instead of teaching players to become better football players, the academy in recent years has become a hotbed of focus on "technical ability".

The purpose of the academy is to take young kids and teach them the technical aspects of the game without which they won't make it in the modern game. That happens between the ages of around 8 and maybe 14 or 15. By that time they've had tens of thousands of touches of the ball with the correct part of the correct foot with the correct body position and the correct head position and so on. It's a critical part of developing young players, and youth coaching licences are all about developing coaches to do exactly that.

But by the time the kids are around 14, it should start to become apparent which position(s) they are best suited for and where they'll contribute most to the team. At that point, I think they should start to be getting more focussed coaching, and by 16, they need to be playing in games where they're exposed to the physicality and speed of senior football, learning how to use the technical expertise that they clearly have and translate that into what you need to do to win a game. I think this is maybe where our academy hasn't done quite as well as it should have done over the past few years - but it might not be entirely their fault. The lack of a reserve league means these lads are either playing for an academy team, they're on the bench for the first team, or they're out on loan. The first two of those are not ideal. Academy games are more "technical" than realistic, while first team exposure will be too limited to really enhance development. So you put lads out on loan and hope it helps get them over the line. Some make it to Premier level but most won't. Big Ross Graham, Kai, maybe Miller Thompson - they might get there. Mochrie, Archie, Duffy - good technical players but haven't quite made it to the top level. Glass strikes me as a bit Gauld-like, in that Scottish football isn't his stage. Nobody's fault. I honestly thought a couple of years back that Lewis Neilson and Ross Graham could be our future centre-half pairing if they both buckled down, and had Asghar not dropped the ball, maybe Neilson would have become better than he is now, But over all, if we can bring 3 players to Premier standard out of a group of 10 academy players, I think that's a pretty decent return.

I can see in Ross Graham and Miller Thompson the mentality and dig and willingness to get down and dirty that's needed to win. A bit less apparent in Kai, though playing wide is a unique position where you're relying on your team mates to involve you in the game. Maybe wide isn't his best position - he doesn't have explosive pace. But he's smart, and he might have more success playing further inside, up top. Bottom line, though, is the academy is having some success IMO.

The above is also why I didn't want another "technical director" as our manager. Another Liam Fox or another "Tam" Courts, or that boy who got the Hearts gig for a short time that used to do the "football out of a box" training stuff with our youth players. Great at developing young players, but they don't know how to win a game (Courts got lucky IMO), and that's what's missing from too many of our academy graduates. As a good ex-player, Goodwin knows how to win a game (again IMO) and, more importantly, he knows the sort of players you need in your team to do it. He also comes across as an intelligent guy and an effective communicator, and he seems to know which players need an arm round the shoulder and which need a kick up the arse.

I can't think of a manager since Wee Jim who has been at enough of a distance from the players (i.e. he's not their pal) and has been willing to go beyond sentimentality and make tough decisions. Maybe Mixu, but he had little to work with, in a club that was on its knees.

So, for me, leave the academy in place. But look at adding in a much more effective transition process, which might mean hiring someone specifically to do that. Dave Bowman has the playing experience and absolutely has the mentality, but I'm not sure he has the communication skills as a coach that are required to develop those players optimally. Great guy to have around purely for attitude and mentality, but he might need to be working for someone of similar standing who communicates better. A Jim McInally type, maybe?

Sorry for the long post. Got a bit carried away!
 

Agree with both parts of the post!

McMann

Seems a strange one to me.

- Unsung hero, competent, journeyman, spine of the team, would have made good squad man.
- Given Jim now intends going out and finds better player he still need backup. Who's that going to be.
- What are we expecting to get ?  Given that financially aside from Uglies Hearts in Scottish Premier reality is we still have to cut our cloth.
- Good understanding, positional play with Middleton.
- Cudjoe, Grimshaw, Holt, Gallacher stay, McMann offski ??
- Pace wise no the fastest but no slouch.

Still, trust Goodwin 100% and pleased to see ruthlessness.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Director of Scouting, Director of Marketing !!!???
Call me curmudgeon (correct) but what a load ae shite. Have we no learned our lesson re top heaviness.
- Director of Scouting with Eredivisie, Portuguese, Doncaster, Barnet experience ? Big f... deal.
- Again call me curmudgeon and it doesnae seem to work this way any more, but get somebody  out on a pissing wet Tuesday night at Shettleston or Shotts to pick up what our academy doesnae seem to generate i.e. dirty wee gifted bastards hungry for a start.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - -

Honest question:
Newman reserve goalie, never seems to get a look in. Spaghetti man plays, Walton comes in on loan, opportunities to play him in League Cup and yon other diddy Cup and hes still getting splinters. 
What the story there ?

Last edited by Shakey Isles Arab (09/5/2024 10:15 pm)

Billy_Hainey wrote:

So we win the Title, and there's no a Statement Fae the Chairman, no even a phuckin cheep.

But we let 15 players go, including McMann and Mochrie, 2 or oor best players.

And whar are we getting ah the replacements fae? We dinna even hae a Goalie FFS.

Kent this would happen.

 
We don’t have a game for aboot 3 months, we’ll sign players

Think some are thinking Scott mcmann is second coming of Andy Robertson, he’s bang average let’s be honest, everyone saying he’s a decent back up, maybe he doesn’t want to be a back up player

Mochrie was decent, but he was definitely not one of our better players.  He scored 3 goals, admittedly important goals, but he really struggled to get a game in the Championship and when he did get a game it was clear that he had bags of ability but I don't think he was close to being able to handle the physicality of the game.  Next season, we'll be playing in the Premiership where he will be further out of his depth.

I'm disappointed that McMann has gone as I felt he could do a job in the Premiership - he was a consistent player in the Championship (albeit with a couple of bad performances, but he is human after all) and when he played int eh Premiership last time round, whilst he didn't set the heather alight, he was chopping and changing between LB and CB and not getting any real continuity in his game.

I think we might have to wait til June before we can sign players officially, but we could announce pre-contracts, btu I doubt players will be committing themselves to anything with only a few weeks to go til the transfer window opens.

The outcry about McMann is reminding me of the last promotion and the same thing happening with Paul Watson.

A good servant in the championship, wasn't renewed and there was a fair amount of moaning. The boys is now plying his trade at Spartans according the the interweb.

This is the same for me. McMann, good servant in this league, we need to be aiming for better though. Eventually the outrage will subside and he'll sign for a lower end premiership team like Ross County or wind at Partick Thistle.

Shakey Isles Arab wrote:

M
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - -

Honest question:
Newman reserve goalie, never seems to get a look in. Spaghetti man plays, Walton comes in on loan, opportunities to play him in League Cup and yon other diddy Cup and hes still getting splinters. 
What the story there ?

MB never even got a squad number this season and Newman definitely played, on occasion, over MB last season.

Walton comes in as starter so gets the League cup groups as prep, it would be foolish to have his first game as the first league game. I know Newman was away with the 21s on some of the Trust Trophy weekends so not in the frame.

Could have sent him on loan I suppose but that would have meant having Adams on the bench.

We've been good at letting players go to our competitors. Some of the players released would be a good shout for Airdrie, Thistle or Raith, any oe which might be coming up to the Premiership tae. (mibbee no of coorse).

Canna see Celtic or Rangers or Herts letting any oe their players come to us.

Defence worries me. Holt and Gallacher against Kyogo and Maeda.