AlwaysUnited wrote:

Finn Seemann wrote:

Not sure what the fuss is here.  Courts reacts to reported racist incident by showing those potentially guilty of the act, football's anti-racism T-shirt.  If it turns out that there was a misunderstanding then he can apologise for jumping to conclusions in the heat of the moment and that should be that - there should be no shame or recriminations for standing up for the right thing.  For that he has gone way up in my estimations.  It sends a message (the right message) that racism at the game will not be tolerated.  I can't see how County fans can get over-excited if they are indeed innocent as it looks may be the case.  

I'd rather the club reacted as Courts did to the possibility that racist abuse may have occurred rather than potentially be seen to condone it because we are not 100% sure that it happened.  It is zero tolerance after all.  Correct message sent and well done Tam.

The County fans could have defused the situation by applauding Courts holding up the t-shirt and then we'd know better where they stood rather than their club having to roll out a very strange formal denial to the media on their behalf....

Although I can appreciate the club (and not the fans any of whom I have spoken to didn't want their current manager for the very reason) are a bit touchy given the track record of condoning racists.

 
To repeat a point made by others above, if the tables had turned there would be merry hell to pay from United fans if they were unjustly accused in such a public manner, I shudder to imagine the reaction. To use another analogy, if I followed an innocent person around with a banner saying "Down with sex offenders" whilst pointing at them - they could reasonably be upset at my actions whilst still agreeing with the general principal, and I'd imagine County fans felt the same when Tam was pointing at them and displaying the slogan. I can see why they didn't applaud him in the heat of the moment.

It is never a good idea to go steaming in throwing accusations about without being in possession of all the facts, and that is what Tam did here, when a calm head would have better served the situation. We all get overcome by raw emotion, but the mark of a good leader is the ability to harness it and use it effectively. I'm sure Tam will reflect and learn from this incident though.

A joint statement from both clubs, with quotes from the managers, would go a long a way to defusing the situation.

Of course, if there is actual evidence of racism, they the individual(s) involved should face the full force of the law as well a ban from attending any future matches.

I get that argument.  Courts would have been better to show all sides of the ground the t-shirt.  but, we need to start calling it out when we hear it.  Anything else is condoning it.  I don't think he did much wrong - and I am not his biggest fan.

Canadian Arab wrote:

Tough one to comment on given we don't know exactly what happened.

Jeando believes he heard a racist slur directed at him. For me, you don't get upset and then go and talk to the 4th official about it unless you are certain of what you heard. I don't see Jeando saying "Hey ref - someone in the crowd shouted something that sounded a bit like <insert racial slur here> - I'm maybe 60% sure that's what it was but I'm going to assume that's what it was and so now I'm upset."

For Courts, or anyone else, to question Jeando's concerns at that time would be like doubting rape victims - which is why so many don't come forward. I think Courts had to stick up for his player at the time, and he did. My initial reaction was pride that we have a manager who will speak out about things that really matter. If an investigation proves nothing was shouted (and I'm not sure that's an easy thing to prove) then I am 100% confident that Courts will apologise to the Ross Country supporters who were there. I'd rather Courts spoke out now and asked for forgiveness later than kept quiet at the time because he wasn't 100% sure that Jeando's account was accurate. I'd rather he pissed off 38 away fans than one outstanding player.

Having said all of that, enough Ross County fans have spoken out against the Mackay appointment because of his questionable history that I'd have thought at least some people in their crowd would have shouted down any idiot making racist comments. If the roles were reversed and someone in our crowd had possibly shouted racist abuse at an opposition player, I'm pretty sure the idiot responsible would get an earful from our fans. Also, if the opposition manager came over to our fans at the end of the game and held up an anti-racism shirt or banner, would I be furious (if I hadn't heard what was shouted)? No. I'd assume there was a reasonable chance something had been shouted and I'd probably be more pissed off that someone in our crowd would do that. Just my own feelings on that.

​Maybe the racist comment was shouted in French?

I was watching our youth team play a few years back - they were probably about 15 at the time. I'm thinking I was suspended from coaching as I was sitting with the parents and supporters on the opposite side of the pitch. One of our players, a black lad, slipped as he was turning to chase down a ball. Someone from the opposition support to my left shouted "Did you slip on a banana skin?" I looked across right away but too late to see who it was. Not one other adult sitting in that area called the guy out for directing racial abuse at a kid. The linesman happened to be right in front of me at the time so I asked him to step in. He told me he had heard the comment but couldn't do anything about it as he didn't see who had shouted it (he could do something about it but that's another issue). At the end of the game I approached the ref and their coach and asked them to follow up, and all I got was a shrug. So I called their club out on twitter. The local football association was furious. Not with the racist comment but with me calling it out on twitter. I was sent a warning and they revised their social media policy to make it an "offence" to comment on any other club or their staff or supporters. They didn't revise their racism policy though, and nothing was done about the incident. Priorities, eh?

If Courts had kept his mouth shut and it had been left to the SFA to deal with whatever happened, the usual brush and carpet would probably be dragged out. So, to repeat myself, I'm happy that Courts backed his player at the time, despite the possibility that he may have to apologise at a later date.

Pretty much where I am.

Looks like United are sticking by the original allegation so no apology or back down.  Maybe some on here too quick to judge?  Maybe they'll apologise?

 

Last edited by Finn Seemann (04/10/2021 7:35 pm)

Finn Seemann wrote:

Looks like United are sticking by the original allegation so no apology or back down.  Maybe some on here too quick to judge?  Maybe they'll apologise?

 

Apologise for what? An opinion. 

If Utd have concrete evidence, then i am glad the culprit/s in question have been caught and i would expect a lifetime ban from Tannadice and a police charge to follow.


 

Finn Seemann wrote:

Tek wrote:

Finn Seemann wrote:

Looks like United are sticking by the original allegation so no apology or back down.  Maybe some on here too quick to judge?  Maybe they'll apologise?

 

Apologise for what? An opinion. 

If Utd have concrete evidence, then i am glad the culprit/s in question have been caught and i would expect a lifetime ban from Tannadice and a police charge to follow.


 

I was meaning those who appear to have jumped the gun by saying that Courts was wrong to act the way he did and accused him of jumping the gun.  Appears he may well have been justified in his actions after all.  Comment was v much tongue in cheek, but some people who thought his actions were a bit silly (because RC denied them - and to be fair that seemed to be the lie of the land) may now look a bit silly themselves.  

Can't remember if that was your view Tek and not bothered to go back and check, but I didn't think it was.

Wasn't myself who said that, no. But i stand by i would prefer TC not to have gotten involved with the County supporters and instead just let the results of the investigation play out. But i can see the other side of why supporters liked his actions. It's just my personal opinion. Others are entitled to their's.

Pretty dismayed if racism has actually indeed been carried out against one of our players (and a seemingly lovely young man to boot) as i was hoping it was perhaps just all a misunderstanding. But pleased Utd have perhaps caught the perpetrator/s if indeed our video 'evidence' is of a sufficient quality to confirm guilt. 

I do recall when Utd played Dundee in the 1-1 Tannadice draw at Xmas time 2019 that Dundee supporters were adamant that a Utd supporter had racially abused their Striker, Kane Hemmings and were saying much the same as Utd fans are now regards County i.e. disgusting club, racist fans etc etc. The subsequent video came out and i watched it about 20 times and genuinely couldn't decipher what was shouted, neither could most of the other people who watched it and Utd subsequently dropped their investigation.

Let's see how all this plays out. Hopefully it is concluded quickly by the SFA so Utd and Jeando Fuchs can move on from it, hopefully to a suitable conclusion.
 

Doesn't look like the club is backing down after all. I thought their statement today was excellent

Tek wrote:

nomad wrote:

Doesn't look like the club is backing down after all. I thought their statement today was excellent

It was a good, considered and articulate statement.

The fact County fans have came forward is a credit to them and hopefully the Utd supporters who reacted like their entire support is/was racist last weekend now realise it is only a tiny minority (and every club has their scum element). It also would certainly add creedence to the allegation of racism and it now certainly looks like it was not something that was possibly misheard, sadly.

Really hope they can identify the culprit/s in question.
 

 
Did any United supporters react in that way? I don't recall anyone saying or implying that their whole support was racist. How you would even determine that from half a busload of fans is a mystery to me anyway. I do recall however, people being quick to condemn Tam Courts for his reaction without waiting for the outcome of the investigation.

Tek wrote:

Arabdownsouth wrote:

Tek wrote:

It was a good, considered and articulate statement.

The fact County fans have came forward is a credit to them and hopefully the Utd supporters who reacted like their entire support is/was racist last weekend now realise it is only a tiny minority (and every club has their scum element). It also would certainly add creedence to the allegation of racism and it now certainly looks like it was not something that was possibly misheard, sadly.

Really hope they can identify the culprit/s in question.
 

 
Did any United supporters react in that way? I don't recall anyone saying or implying that their whole support was racist. How you would even determine that from half a busload of fans is a mystery to me anyway. I do recall however, people being quick to condemn Tam Courts for his reaction without waiting for the outcome of the investigation.

Yip.

I read a few online referring to County as a scum club and saying they had a racist fanbase etc. All because of one or two pricks. 
 

Every club has its small percentage of pricks.

Tangy wrote:

So county have issued a statement saying no racist comments were made?

Seems a bit of a difference to united statement which was quite vague in comparison....

United 'we've submitted evidence'

County 'it's clear there was no racists language and the matter is closed'

Interesting development. Mostly, I hope fuchs is satisfied with the outcome

 
Well they have a manager who probably thinks he's not a racist so I have no faith in their statement at all and prefer our clubs intolerance of racism.

Tangy wrote:

I don't see how their managers past is relevant as to whether or not Fuchs was racially abused.

Also - people can learn and be better people - there's nothing to suggest that he hasn't done that.

Either way and excluding Malky McKay, I still hope that Fuchs is satisfied that the club have done all they can to investigate his claim and that they have his back.

 
Aye right, people learn and become better people. Or they sit the course, nod their heads and tick the boxes very much like a speed awareness course. Leopards and spots mate.

You're right of course that it has no bearing on whether there's anything in the allegations or not, but Malky was very quick off the mark to condemn Tam's behaviour but would like everyone to forgive and forget his own misdemeanours.

Shakey Isles Arab wrote:

Proud of Tam.
Hope it doesnae affect Jeando
Hate racism

Likewise Shakey

There are some quotes from Tam in the courier today...

“That t-shirt should be seen as a t-shirt of peace,” said Courts.

“It’s a reminder of what we need to uphold ourselves to in society and not just in football.

“I think that’s the message that we want to land.

“Yes you come to football, it’s tribal, it’s competitive.

“But we have to hold ourselves to higher standards than that in this country in terms of how we behave.

“We cannot tolerate anything that is discriminatory or racist."

Laudable words but I still think he jumped the gun. I've absolutely no doubt he acted with the very best of intentions, and was 100% looking to defend his player, but ultimately what he did wasn't an" act of peace". He was effectively accusing a group of supporters of being racist by aggressively waving the shirt and pointing specifically at them, ultimately without any firm evidence.

An act of peace might have been to calmly walk round the entire stadium holding the shirt. I suspect he's realised this now hence his much calmer and more measured statements today.

Hopefully everyone can move on from this now.

Last edited by AlwaysUnited (15/10/2021 9:31 am)

Tek wrote:

He won't of course.

What's the difference?

Discriminatory abuse isn't bound by race, colour or religion.

Is it?

Will he feel compelled to stand-up for our catholic players/staff? 




 

1/ You pick your fights
2/ No
3/ Silly question.