Tekel Towers » Promising young managers 4-2-3-1 'the right way'

Ex Houston Arab · 10/9/2017 3:44 pm

This seems to be the pish spouted by all 'promising young managers' coming through Largs and that they want to 'play football the right way'
Unfortunately to play this formation you need technically gifted midfielders who can pass and move at pace and an exceptional centre forward who is both quick and powerful enough to lead the line himself and hold up the ball.
Problem is, none of these players are easy to find in the Scottish game.

I've been racking my brains trying to think up a manager who's not an old passed it out of work fud like him Jeffries or one of the 'new breed' like jakey, ray or Hartley, that will play to our strengths.

Best I could come up with so far is Andy Webster based on his 2010 team talk after rangers pumped us.

Who is a realistic target for us that will get us playing pacey attacking football?

10/9/2017 7:19 pm

I've said Andy Webster to my mates. Not sure why, I just like the cut of his jib.

I remember thinking when levein was Scotland manager, it's all very well trying to play a certain style but it means fuck all if the players aren't capable.

Surely the players must be fed up too. Although this is their job, football should be fun to play and I can't see how it's fun playing for united just now.

10/9/2017 7:56 pm

In the absence of much competition it'd probably have to be...wait for it...wee drum roll...ane, twa, shree...it's Yogi

and I say this with fuck all enthusiasm, but who else on the dole is there

lifesanocean · 10/9/2017 8:26 pm

Danny Lennon? My old boy knows him and says he's a really good lad and a good manager. Won a cup with St Mirren and kept them up comfortably before being shafted by Tommy Craig. Had them playing good football but still had a target man (Steven Thompson) to mix it up which is basically what most of us want to see. Strange that he's not done anything since leaving St Mirren though.

Jon Daly? Passed over at Hearts. Got the club at heart (us I mean). His put down of that smug cunt Brendan Rodgers suggests he's got a bit of steel. Praised for getting Hearts fitter and simplifying things after Cathro had seemingly bamboozled the Hearts players with a 3-4-3 system that featured squre pegs in round holes and the players disliked and couldn't play (sound familiar?). Sets up the possibility of Daly/Dilllon/Flood management team though which might not go down too well.

It is interesting that everyone slags Largs and what the coaches are being taught there considering the vast majority of the stuff done at Largs on coaching courses was stuff written by Jim McLean.

Last edited by lifesanocean (10/9/2017 8:51 pm)

10/9/2017 8:58 pm

lifesanocean wrote:
Danny Lennon? My old boy knows him and says he's a really good lad and a good manager. Won a cup with St Mirren and kept them up comfortably before being shafted by Tommy Craig. Had them playing good football but still had a target man (Steven Thompson) to mix it up which is basically what most of us want to see. Strange that he's not done anything since leaving St Mirren though.

Jon Daly? Passed over at Hearts. Got the club at heart (us I mean). His put down of that smug cunt Brendan Rodgers suggests he's got a bit of steel. Praised for getting Hearts fitter and simplifying things after Cathro had seemingly bamboozled the Hearts players with a 3-4-3 system that featured squre pegs in round holes and the players disliked and couldn't play (sound familiar?). Sets up the possibility of Daly/Dilllon/Flood management team though which might not go down too well.

It is interesting that everyone slags Largs and what the coaches are being taught there considering the vast majority of the stuff done at Largs on coaching courses was stuff written by Jim McLean.

Had forgotten about Lenton (D) - did well at Smirren and major karma for them (and their ingrate fans) once they got rid

Having said that iirc they weren't very free flowing under him, which seems to be what many on here (and elsewhere) are looking for so might not be a good fit (fan wise)

Last edited by scarpia (10/9/2017 8:58 pm)

motherwellarab · 10/9/2017 9:03 pm

Certainly not a young manager but If mckinnon does get sacked soon then what about Alex mcleish? Has bit of a stature about him for all he's achieved as a player and he's done well as a manager and very experienced.

TheShed · 10/9/2017 11:21 pm

See all this pish about systems/formations, it's exactly that pish. There's loads of different ways to play 4231. The formation isn't the real problem on the park, it's the lack of pace, lack of motivation, lack of commitment, lack of looking up and playing a forward pass, lack of crosses, lack of midfielders attacking the box, lack of fight, lack of playing the simple game, lack of winners & a downright lack of confidence.

For a whole new squad to come in and be so low on all this already proves to me how bad the atmosphere must be around Tannadice, it must be a very depressing place to work.

I'd rather we played 442, but changing the formation isn't going to be a quick fix, changing attitudes is what's required, and quickly.

Tangerine'n'Black · 10/9/2017 11:40 pm

shedboy wrote:
its who would come - but Butcher,Mcleish, Micky Adams, Billy Mckinlay, Charlie Christie, Paul Hartley, David Moyes, Alan Irvine, Owen Coyle, John Hughes, Paul Lambert and so on

Surely some would take a one year gig

That's a pretty motley crew !

Leedsy2 · 10/9/2017 11:55 pm

TheShed wrote:
The formation isn't the real problem on the park, it's the lack of pace, lack of motivation, lack of commitment, lack of looking up and playing a forward pass, lack of crosses, lack of midfielders attacking the box, lack of fight, lack of playing the simple game, lack of winners & a downright lack of confidence.

For a whole new squad to come in and be so low on all this already proves to me how bad the atmosphere must be around Tannadice, it must be a very depressing place to work.

As I see it the players seem demoralised. It has to be bad enough that they have an incompetent and seemingly uncaring chairman but having to depend on leadership from an equally incompetent manager must be thoroughly depressing. We all know these lads can do much better but will they ever get the opportunity? I'm 80 years of age and have supported United since I first sneaked into Tannadice at the age of 7 (the sneaky ins stopped when my old man came home from the Army) and in all that time I never saw my beloved club, not just the team, in such a shambles as it is now. I obviously can't attend Tannadice these days, and do you know what? I'm fucking glad! It breaks my heart just reading about the situation, never mind witnessing it in person.....

annanarab · 11/9/2017 1:05 am

The so called "right way" is a misnomer and for many teams (United included) is actually the WRONG way. The real right way for many is to attack as much as possible and to defend well - forget about possession - its only useful if you do something positive with it. If you lose possession without having done or tried to do something positive, its been a waste of time having it. And stuff this passing to feet all the time. In wee Jim's day the ball was often played forward into space and Luggy, Dodds and Co had to challenge their opponents to win the ball and when they did, they were in a good position to attack. Leicester have shown that this is still a good tactic and using it helped them to beat all the money-bags outfits down south. Its also criminal to play without a target man - its just deprives the team of one of the biggest attacking options and its just as criminal to play just one up front. Now I've started why are we playing any defensive mids far less 2 in this league especially when not one of them ever does the def mid job. It just send out a signal to the team, the opposition and the fans that we are negative and its criminal (again) when we put out 5 midfield players + 2 attacking full backs to create the very limited number of chances we create - what is the point of having these guys if they don't actually create a massive pile of chances.

There are plenty unemployed and/or aspiring managers out there and although our club is toxic at the moment, some of them would be willing to come here for a year or two to get their chance at football management. We just need to make sure next time we bin all the applications from "play it the right way" merchants and get somebody who focus is attacking and defending and has sound ideas as to how he can do this.

I find it hard to believe wee Jim wrote the Largs "play it the dross way" manuals, when his teams never played this way. Think something must have been lost in translation.

TheShed · 11/9/2017 4:09 am

The real "right way" is to play to the strengths of your players, particularly your best players and find the style and system which suits your best players so you can win games. Football is about winning, the style you adopt is just how u get there.

Uniteds best players

Fraser - best in a CM role in a 4 man midfield with a more defensive type beside him
McDonald - over the years proved a goal scorer in a front two
McMullan - best out wide running at a full back

It all points to a 442, but like I said earlier that won't in itself change things quickly without an attitude shift.

SlatefordArab · 11/9/2017 9:47 am

Ex Houston Arab wrote:
This seems to be the pish spouted by all 'promising young managers' coming through Largs and that they want to 'play football the right way'
Unfortunately to play this formation you need technically gifted midfielders who can pass and move at pace and an exceptional centre forward who is both quick and powerful enough to lead the line himself and hold up the ball.
Problem is, none of these players are easy to find in the Scottish game.

I've been racking my brains trying to think up a manager who's not an old passed it out of work fud like him Jeffries or one of the 'new breed' like jakey, ray or Hartley, that will play to our strengths.

Best I could come up with so far is Andy Webster based on his 2010 team talk after rangers pumped us.

Who is a realistic target for us that will get us playing pacey attacking football?

Agree with this. Formations come and go out of fashion. This system was made popular by Barca under Pep, ironic thing now is that he seems to have moved on from it and Man City play a 442 a lot of the time now. People like him are leaders though and know when to move on to new things. The likes of Ray (and everybody else involved with Scottish football for that matter) are merely followers.

tangerine terror · 11/9/2017 11:42 am

Do we really think the formation is the problem?

SlatefordArab · 11/9/2017 12:14 pm

tangerine terror wrote:
Do we really think the formation is the problem?

Maybe not the whole problem, however watching us playing this formation with the players we have is very frustrating.

We are in the Scottish Championship, surely to get out of this league it doesn't require anything overly clever? Put two banks of four up with a couple of proven goal-scorers up front and I really think you stand a good chance in most games in this league.

Not the be-all and end-all but surely that has to be the base to work from.

11/9/2017 12:17 pm

While we might be able to put out a 4-4-2 with all players fit and on form it wouldn't take much in the way of injuries or suspensions to scupper it.

Ex Houston Arab · 11/9/2017 1:25 pm

SlatefordArab wrote:
tangerine terror wrote:
Do we really think the formation is the problem?
Maybe not the whole problem, however watching us playing this formation with the players we have is very frustrating.

We are in the Scottish Championship, surely to get out of this league it doesn't require anything overly clever? Put two banks of four up with a couple of proven goal-scorers up front and I really think you stand a good chance in most games in this league.

Not the be-all and end-all but surely that has to be the base to work from.

Agree that it is not the entire problem, but we cannot t field 6 defensive outfield players and expect to be overly creative.
I never thought I'd see the day where this would be our default at home against teams like Dumbarton and brechin

WeeDude_83 · 11/9/2017 2:14 pm

We need to start putting square pegs in square holes.

Beginning with bringing Ballantyne back from loan.
No more Stewart 'Im a RB now' Murdoch playing, getting tied in knots from a bloody part timer.

No more 2 defensive midfielders in the side. Its not required.
No more 1 uptop. We need to go for the jugular against sides.
The best form of defence is attack.

4-4-2. Preferrably in a diamond formation. We have the squad to play this formation. Boys will be disappointed to be on the bench and out of matchday squad but this is healthy. It will make those who want to play try harder and weed those who aren't arsed out.

Keeper takes care of itself.
Ballantyne back from Loan pronto. He should never have been sent out in the first place.
Two of Edge/Durnan/Quinn
Robson (til Scobbie returns) as his performances since the Saints interest have been abysmal.
ONE from Flood, Fyvie, Briels infront of the back 4.
Mcmullan and King on wings.
One of Stanton or Fraser
Two from McDonald, Keats, N'Koyi, Smith & Piggot.

Really needs to drop the 4-2-3-1 pish.

11/9/2017 4:07 pm

my team based on WeeDude's post

............Lewis

Ballantyne Durnan Quinn Robson

............Fyvie

Mcmullan .............King

...........Stanton

.......McDonald N'Koyi

and I guarantee we'll never see this team start a game under RM

Last edited by Goodie Conway 2 (11/9/2017 4:07 pm)

TheShed · 11/9/2017 5:01 pm

No point discussing Ballantine, that's not going to happen in 2017.

BigAndyFTD · 11/9/2017 5:55 pm

Ah the top managers/players say that matches are won if you can win the midfield battle, fir me oor problem is excactly that, we loose that battle far to often.

St mirren played a 3-4-3 or 3-5-2 against oor 4-2-3-1 flood&fyvie is the 2 with Stanton behind McDonald, and McGinn, McShane and Morgan in particular dropping in ran us ragged fir 90 minutes.

Look at Madrid, Barca, Man City, Man U, eh can go on and em in nay wiy saying we could be like them, but in this league wi the players we've got we can dominate giving the right system and players are played. Guardiola is massive one it, he plays De Bruyne and Silva in centre mid with Fernandinho behind them and they dominate games. Even Hibs last years playing a narrow diamond dominated us.

Ed like ti see us go with a 4-3-3..
Lewis
Murdoch Quinn Edge Scobbie
Fyvie
Fraser Stanton
McMullan King
McDonald/N'Koyi/Keatings.

Dominate the middle and pace on the wings. Fir me 4-4-2 just doesn't work these days a lot of it due ti other teams systems, players between lines etc etc

SuperMario · 11/9/2017 9:52 pm

We don't have the strikers to play 1 up top that's the problem, mcdonald always played up top with someone, nkoyi isn't trusted obviously and keatings is a player but still injured and in positive he will need to someone beside him

nixonisworth20million · 12/9/2017 9:45 am

WeeDude_83 wrote:
We need to start putting square pegs in square holes.

Beginning with bringing Ballantyne back from loan.
No more Stewart 'Im a RB now' Murdoch playing, getting tied in knots from a bloody part timer.

No more 2 defensive midfielders in the side. Its not required.
No more 1 uptop. We need to go for the jugular against sides.
The best form of defence is attack.

4-4-2. Preferrably in a diamond formation. We have the squad to play this formation. Boys will be disappointed to be on the bench and out of matchday squad but this is healthy. It will make those who want to play try harder and weed those who aren't arsed out.

Keeper takes care of itself.
Ballantyne back from Loan pronto. He should never have been sent out in the first place.
Two of Edge/Durnan/Quinn
Robson (til Scobbie returns) as his performances since the Saints interest have been abysmal.
ONE from Flood, Fyvie, Briels infront of the back 4.
Mcmullan and King on wings.
One of Stanton or Fraser
Two from McDonald, Keats, N'Koyi, Smith & Piggot.

Really needs to drop the 4-2-3-1 pish.

I dinna disagree with the players in your team there... but you can't play two wingers in a diamond, leaves you too open down the middle.

Maybe a 4-3-1-2?

lifesanocean · 12/9/2017 11:56 am

The team that started the QOTS game was:

Lewis

Murdoch
Durnan
Edge
Robson

King
Fyvie
Stanton
McMullan

Keatings
McDonald

4-4-2: 2 wingers and 2 strikers. No diamonds, no back 3's no 1's no number 10's, no fucking about.
Scobbie for Robson if he's fit, Toshney if you want to lose the game, Briels if you want to go more defensive instead of Stanton, Fraser if you want to be more attack minded, N'Koyi if you want to be more direct. It's not rocket science.

SlatefordArab · 12/9/2017 12:04 pm

lifesanocean wrote:
The team that started the QOTS game was:

Lewis

Murdoch
Durnan
Edge
Robson

King
Fyvie
Stanton
McMullan

Keatings
McDonald

4-4-2: 2 wingers and 2 strikers. No diamonds, no back 3's no 1's no number 10's, no fucking about.
Scobbie for Robson if he's fit, Toshney if you want to lose the game, Briels if you want to go more defensive instead of Stanton, Fraser if you want to be more attack minded, N'Koyi if you want to be more direct. It's not rocket science.

Abso-fucking-lutley