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Hi Folks,
I, like everybody else, have many questions about goings on at the club. I was disappointed when talks between the fed and the club broke down for whatever reason (and this thread is not the place to discuss it). I made contact with the club a wee while ago about asking some questions - some of these were similar to the feds questions and some were just my own. I asked if they were ok if i shared these online and the club were ok with it.
I hope you guys find it an interesting read and on a personal note, I'd like to thank Colin Stewart for his time and everybody else at the club who contributed. I hope that i will maybe get another session with them in the future.
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[*] In the past few years, we have received transfer fees for several players. Can the club summarise how fees are normally broken down, including things such as tax, agent fees, etc. Are the fees reported in the press accurate or are they a little optimistic?
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Headline figures reported in the media are often ‘top end’ and even then can be further inflated beyond the real value of the deal. They usually assume that every add-on is also built in to their total figure although some triggers will never be realised over the course of the player’s contract at the new club (see below for add-on examples). In fairness to the media running such stories it is based on best guesstimates as transfer values and related terms almost always contain confidentiality clauses between clubs.
The anatomy of a transfer deal can involve many factors but in the main they will contain all or any of the following:
Income
Initial fee – up-front price paid on successful transfer of player to new club.
Future instalments – fixed instalments triggered at certain dates as part of the initial guaranteed fee. For example the initial fee could be paid 40% on transfer of player then 30% within 6 months and then 30% a further 6 months later.
Trigger payments – these can be based on landmark achievements by the player at his new club which provide further gain for his previous club. For example, after 25, 50, 75 starts at his new club his old club get a further £s.
Sell-on – if the player subsequently moves on from his new club to another club then his original club may be eligible to receive a % of that fee or a fixed sum.
Costs
Often there are a series of costs incurred or triggered as a result of a player transfer to another club. These can include:
Former Club – as above there can be a fee payable to his former club of x% of the total transfer fee.
Intermediary Fee(s) – known previously as agents, intermediaries often take an agreed % of any transaction between clubs. There can sometimes be two or three intermediaries involved in any single player move especially if the move is cross-border.
The Player – sometimes the Player himself benefits from the transfer as he receives a % of the deal.
2) Has a date for the AGM to consider the accounts to 30 June 2016 been agreed and can you make any comment about the financial health of the Club based on these figures? Further to this, can the club comment on the role played by the fan base which has continued to support the club financially through these difficult times.
Date has still to be announced but should be by the end of March. Prior to the confirmed date draft accounts will be sent out to all shareholders and the club will make a media statement regarding the contents. The AGM is the principle forum to deal with all aspects of the club`s finances for the accounting year 2015-16. In terms of the financial support from the fan base, DUFC are no different from any other club of a similar size in Scotland and Season ticket sales, walk up gate income, commercial and merchandising revenues all go towards the budget the manager has at his disposal when shaping the playing squad.
3) In May 2016, the Chairman was quoted in the press as actively seeking fresh investment for the club. Can you update me on whether this is still ongoing and whether any investment has been found. Do the board have certain criteria which potential investors much meet before entering into negotiations.
The club are still actively pursuing investment opportunities as was laid out in the Strategic report to shareholders at the last AGM. Due to the confidential and sensitive nature of such a process public comment from the club regarding this would be inappropriate. However, the club would like to make clear that any negotiations regarding inward investment would have to be focused upon what is in the best interests of DUFC in the long term.
4) In 2013, the club stated we have a 5 year plan, which covered the clubs finances, the football aspect of the club and the clubs standing within the community. We are entering into our 4th year of this plan and have seen some major changes on and off the field. Could you update us on how all 3 aspects of the plans have progressed?
It was in 2015 that a section of the club`s Five year plan was discussed jointly with members of the Arab Trust’s board and the committee of the Federation of Dundee United Supporters Clubs. This was part of an engagement process to assist with giving the groups a deeper understanding of the club`s strategy going forward. As in all organisations, management boards need to adapt to changing environments and DUFC are no different. In terms of the three areas referred to; i.e. Finance, Footballing aspects and community, these are the three core pillars set out in the Strategic report at the last AGM and upon which the board view the key performance indicators of the business. The club have implemented a broad-based restructuring of their operations whilst retaining an ambition to return the club to the Premiership at the earliest opportunity. The club very much value the way supporters have continued to support the club through season ticket renewals and uptake of tickets on a match by match basis and this revenue has gone a long way to meet both the board’s and the supporters’ expectations for the club going forward. In terms of the footballing operations, we have a new management team in place who have restructured the playing squad and are focussed upon returning the club to the top tier of Scottish Football. This includes reviewing aspects of the club`s recruitment policy and the transition development process for existing players at the club. In line with other comparative football clubs the enhancement and expansion of the club`s brand within the local community has also undertaken a great deal of development planning. The club have been of financial assistance to the current UFA Charity, in a partnership to push forward initiates to plan and source charitable funding that uses the club`s brand in a wide range of community projects within the local and outlying areas. It is anticipated that this will involve providing meaningful community activities that meet the needs of all residents within the city’s catchment. The club have four representatives on the charities board and we look forward to this relationship growing in the years to come.
5) United have a proud history of bringing youths through to the first team. We hear through the press that 'project brave’ is being talked about in the corridors of Hampden. What is the club’s view on this new initiative. Is it likely United will be part of this initiative and if not, will it limit the top talent to the top 8 youth setups in the country.
The SFA have been in discussions with member clubs regarding changes to the present national youth set up. Given the club`s track record of youth development, DUFC still view the development of its Youth Academy as a key strategic aim going forward. The club are still in the process of working through the model from the SFA and will submit a bid to the SFA using the criteria sent to them. Without doubt, the clear message from the club is that youth development, and the participation within the proposed new structure, is an essential way forward for the club. There has recently been formed a Youth Development Board at the club comprising of representatives from the various supporter’s groups along with key figures from the club`s Youth Academy and Development team. The aim of this is group is to coordinate supporters financial donations towards youth development at DUFC.
6) This season sees us currently (at the time of writing) in second place in the league, 6 points behind Hibs. Can you detail what plans are in place for the club for next season both in the event of promotion and in playing championship football. If, we fail to gain promotion this season, will the club need to make further cuts to areas such as training facilities and the managers wage budget?
Forward planning always takes place in any organisation and budgets are in place to address either outcome. Whatever happens the key to the future is the continued support of the fans through renewal of season tickets and attendance at games both home and away. The continued support from the fans in financial terms is key to the future of the club irrespective of the division we find ourselves in. Four out of the six biggest clubs in Scotland have had to spend time out of the top tear for a variety of reasons and, as a club, we have no divine right to be anything else but open to sporting competition from competitor clubs within the SPFL membership.
The biggest asset we have as a club is a large and consistently loyal fan base built upon success on the park. It is very apparent that the supporters have maintained that loyalty this season and that this continued support will greatly assist the club in meeting everyone’s expectations in returning the club to the Premiership.
That way both the financial and football aspirational challenges of the club can be realised and supporters expectations met.
7) Looking at the non-playing side of the club, can you explain the structure in place, who the key personnel are and the roles and responsibilities of the post holders.
Stephen Thompson is Chairman and has ultimate responsibility for the running of the club along with the board of directors namely non-exec directors Mike Martin and David McGrory and associate directors David Dorward, Laura Conway and Colin Stewart. As a fulltime professional organisation David Southern has responsibility as the General Manager and ensures that the club`s various departments ie. Footballing Operations, Commercial, Ticketing, Media, and Community along with the outsourced service providers deliver an effective and efficient service towards the running of the club. The roles that individuals have within this structure are made public within both the clubs official website and the official matchday programme.
8) What are the Board considerations given to when selecting a new manager?
In the event of a change of key management positons at the club ultimately this for discussion and decision at Board level. Factors such as the suitability and remuneration package is a matter for the Board given their appointed responsibilities.
9) What is the board’s involvement in selecting new players for the team?
The Board are responsible for setting the player budget and selection of players within this budget is then decided by the manager appointed.
10) The club recently employed Jim Spence, a respected local journalist, to help manage the relationship between the fans and the club. I noted with interest that he recently left his consultant position. Do the club think the relationship between the 2 parties could be further improved and are there any plans in place to further engage with the support.
Jim acted as a club consultant until his agreed deal was completed at the end of last year. The club are very appreciative of the work he carried out in engaging with all our supporters and the existing structures he built on and those he assisted in putting in place are ongoing. DUFC have always had a very open door with supporters, through a continued Associate Director position on the DUFC board via ArabTRUST and regular communication with its various supporter’s groups. Jim assisted the club through consolidating this via outreach work with individual supporters culminating with the formation of a Supporters Liaison Group that brought together all the established group under the SLG banner. This allows the club, along with Moira Hughes, the Supporters Liaison Officer, to provide regular meetings with supporter’s representatives and independent fans thus allowing a two way communication process.
Last edited by Tangy (13/2/2017 6:54 pm)
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sensible questions tangy. I dont think there is much more the board can say. Tangy i'll nominate you to be the go between fans and the board.
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Beharder wrote:
sensible questions tangy. I dont think there is much more the board can say. Tangy i'll nominate you to be the go between fans and the board.
Ha. Thank you. Yes, I'm pleased we could get something sorted out. There's a couple of answers that opened my eyes a little - especially the transfer one - ie how much money is divided out - 2 or 3 people can get a cut of the pie?
Also confirmation that Jackie mixu and ray are given 100% control on transfer targets/budget
Anyway - hope people find it helpful and might be able to strike up a wee relationship and get further questions but that is way down the line👍
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Tbh and no disrespect to you Tangy, but there really isn't anything in any of those answers that isn't really just common knowledge on how things work in the game, there's no specifics in the answers.
Well done to you for getting questions answered tho.
I do find it strange that 1 individual gets answers and the biggest Utd supporters group gets none.
Anyway I'm sure we'll all have more questions we want to ask soon.
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TheShed wrote:
Tbh and no disrespect to you Tangy, but there really isn't anything in any of those answers that isn't really just common knowledge on how things work in the game, there's no specifics in the answers.
Well done to you for getting questions answered tho.
I do find it strange that 1 individual gets answers and the biggest Utd supporters group gets none.
Anyway I'm sure we'll all have more questions we want to ask soon.
None taken, pal.
From my point of view, there's a good few of those questions were more to confirm points. There's so many rumours fly around etc it gets difficult to work out what the truth is.
As for how I got these questions put across - it's not really for this thread.....but I'll happily chat about it somewhere else 😃
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The party line bullshit......
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Appreciate your efforts and method Tangy. Hope you continue to bleed info and up the outcome bud. Good start.
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Arab_plumber wrote:
The party line bullshit......
And the predictable shoot down from the mad fan who craves an answer but contradicts himself in so many hilarious ways.
Tangy doesn't claim to provide solutions but searches. Don't be so quick kill his efforts off
as a waste of time.
Any way to get answers slowly, tactfully or whatever the fuck way is good for me Plumber.
The answers fae the club will probably be lacking but let the lad try. Sure yer reply is aimed at the response but do you have anything constructive to add you negative fekker?
Online!
Nothing too revelatory in there,nonetheless,well done Tangy for seeking some answers mate.
Online!
Incidentally was Colin Stewart the guy who said it would be Liquidation and not Administration in the event of an insolvency order?
or have i got that wrong?
Last edited by Tek (13/2/2017 10:15 pm)
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Tek wrote:
Incidentally was Colin Stewart the guy who said it would be Liquidation and not Administration in the event of an insolvency order?
or have i got that wrong?
Pretty sure it was him and maybe Spence that said it. Wonder if we'll find out if he was right.
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Thanks for the effort Tangy: I'm unsure what else Colin Stewart could actually give as answers which would satisfy us all. I know the sort of stuff we'd like to know, but also understand that it is limited what can actually be divulged in public.
It's frustrating and no mistake, but AP, I think it's unfair and simplistic that you state
The party line bullshit......
What is in it for the directors to mislead the supporters? Why would David Dorward with a solid reputation in running a key pound public service, Laura Conway, a successful entrepreneur who ran an international business, Mike Martin who is an executive with a global financial service provider and David McGrory who is a partner in a large UK law firm cover up for the villian of the piece in Stephen Thompson, who some fans see as milking the club?
I'm not happy with what is happening and has happened at Tannadice, but to dismiss an attempt at genuine communication as 'bullshit' is crude and unhelpful.
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Love how nearly every question answer mentions the fans and the need for us to buy season tickets etc. Desprate for cash.
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Arab_plumber wrote:
The party line bullshit......
Without throwing petrol on the bonfire its like me answering the questions that I have set for myself.
Paranoia will stalk the fanbase until real answers are give to real questions.
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Fidel_Castro wrote:
Arab_plumber wrote:
The party line bullshit......
Without throwing petrol on the bonfire its like me answering the questions that I have set for myself.
Paranoia will stalk the fanbase until real answers are give to real questions.
A lot of people are really not going to like the real answers to the real questions when they're given.
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why is there a need for answers when the in the know fans already know the facts.
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Beharder wrote:
why is there a need for answers when the in the know fans already know the facts.
Yer no helping here BH.
That's a great effort Tangy to go it alone and you rightly give credit to Colin Stewart too.
Obviously a few bland replies but there's stuff in there that's very interesting like the mechanics of transfer fees.
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What I gleaned from Colin's answers was that Ray (and those before him) gets a budget and its up to them from then on to run the playing side of things presumably up to the point they (e.g. Jackie, Mixu) are sacked.
Given we've been in decline for around 3 years now and that at least 2 of the managers (Ray and Jackie) were light on experience before they got here and Mixu was light on managerial success, should the Board not have had a Performance Management System in pace to regularly (ie weekly) review with the Manager the teams performance to make sure they are on the right lines and making progress towards the Boards targets. Clearly no such system was in place as we had far too many defeats which led to our relegation. It seem neglectful of the board to allow an under-performing manager and under-performing team to continue under-performing for lengthy periods without intervening to question methods, tactics and alternatives. If the Manager is doing well and achieving the football targets and entertaining the fans or even encouraging more fans to come and see the attractive football being played, the need for such meetings could be reduced to a monthly session.
Since the 1st Falkirk game, Board should have been reviewing performance with Ray on a weekly basis as in that time we have had quite a few dreadful results and performances. It is no use waiting until the end of the season to find out whether Ray has succeeded or failed. He is not currently succeeding and the Board needs Ray to provide answers and alternatives and to make the necessary changes to get the team back on track for the promotion push. I remember Jackie saying " he stood by his principles and philosophies (???) and wouldn't be changing his ways which is exactly the point he should have been sacked given we were propelling down the league. We cant afford to have managers that put their own interests ahead of the team. If a manager is sacked it should never come as a surprise if performance has been reviewed regularly
Last edited by annanarab (14/2/2017 1:09 pm)
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TheShed wrote:
I do find it strange that 1 individual gets answers and the biggest Utd supporters group gets none.
Dont know exactly how it was put to the club by Fed but Tangy has been calm & non-aggressive & non-confrontational in his approach.
He also never asked to ask questions of their answers right away, maybe thats had something to do with it. Seem to remember folk saying that's what club were unhappy with?
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Tangerine_Ultra wrote:
Love how nearly every question answer mentions the fans and the need for us to buy season tickets etc. Desprate for cash.
Every clubs desperate for cash. We're no different. Reduced income = more help required by fanbase.
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Nothing too revelatory as Tek says but here its a start. Better than a kick in the fucking balls.
Some folk do know more than others. They should be coming forward if they have the facts & evidence IMO.
In the same breath, some folk think they know more than others. They should zip it.
FWIW I think its decent that he's managed to get a reply.
Calm, sensible, non-aggressive approach will always get more answers. Will take longer but get there in the end.
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Beharder wrote:
why is there a need for answers when the in the know fans already know the facts.
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Cheers weedude.
I'd hope that of the 10 questions, at least 5 of them were asked by the fed - so hoping they can garner some information from that.
I'd love to think this could be the start of a closer relationship between the club and online Arabs and that it will help.
As for the bits about the fans, I'm maybe more positive and think the answers are trying to praise the fans for sticking with the team although as you rightly say, every team from 5th in the premier league down is hugely dependant on the fan base and their financial contribution.
I'm not in the business of ramming information down people's throats - if some don't wish to read or believe it, then that is fine - if it gives others a wee bit of hope for the future or an awareness of the bigger picture, then that's also fine.
As for the quality of the answers, I feel they have tried to put across detail in certain questions and some they obviously can't. Overall they have put a lot of time and effort into a request from a guy off the street. I'm not a super fan - i just go when I can. So 👏👏👏 to the club for that.
If all goes well and there's some positive feedback I would maybe try to open up questions to folk on here - but that is months away.
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annanarab wrote:
What I gleaned from Colin's answers was that Ray (and those before him) gets a budget and its up to them from then on to run the playing side of things presumably up to the point they (e.g. Jackie, Mixu) are sacked.
Given we've been in decline for around 3 years now and that at least 2 of the managers (Ray and Jackie) were light on experience before they got here and Mixu was light on managerial success, should the Board not have had a Performance Management System in pace to regularly (ie weekly) review with the Manager the teams performance to make sure they are on the right lines and making progress towards the Boards targets. Clearly no such system was in place as we had far too many defeats which led to our relegation. It seem neglectful of the board to allow an under-performing manager and under-performing team to continue under-performing for lengthy periods without intervening to question methods, tactics and alternatives. If the Manager is doing well and achieving the football targets and entertaining the fans or even encouraging more fans to come and see the attractive football being played, the need for such meetings could be reduced to a monthly session.
Since the 1st Falkirk game, Board should have been reviewing performance with Ray on a weekly basis as in that time we have had quite a few dreadful results and performances. It is no use waiting until the end of the season to find out whether Ray has succeeded or failed. He is not currently succeeding and the Board needs Ray to provide answers and alternatives and to make the necessary changes to get the team back on track for the promotion push. I remember Jackie saying " he stood by his principles and philosophies (???) and would{n't?} be changing his ways which is exactly the point he should have been sacked given we were propelling down the league. We cant afford to have managers that put their own interests ahead of the team. If a manager is sacked it should never come as a surprise if performance has been reviewed regularly
Annanarab, while I've agreed with a few of your tactical assertions recently, I doubt many managers would take a job in such a rigid situation where the business people are questioning your football knowledge. Some strong personalities might, but then they would probably want more insight to the money workings at a club in a reciprocal manner.
Most managers don't succeed in football, if clubs adopted such a model, there would be several sackings every other day, and clubs couldn't really afford to do that.
I don't think many managerial sackings come as surprises, we knew Jackie and Mixu were on their way out, if anything they were supported too well by the board and the surprise was they lasted so long.
(I've added in {n't?} to a bit of your text, have I got that wrong?)