MatTheCat wrote:

arabugsy wrote:

It didn't happen, for whatever reason, but one lost battle doesn't lose a war.

Edit. The altruism, as ever, is here in abundance and I'm sure there's a fair amount of guile about.
 

I would tend to argue that those who possess the altruism required, will lack the guile, and those who have the guile to successfully ride the waves of the upper echelons of power will most certainly lack the altruism.

Putting things more simply, what we are essentially talking about is taking the power to make decisions, essentially in order to decide to take a big bunch of wealth away from the hands that are currently rested upon it or who intend to get their grips on it in the future, and redistributing for the benefit of the Scottish people. It isn't hard to see that their might be some pretty powerful opponents to the utopian vision of an independent Scotland as depcited by the YES campaign?

Any Scottish premier who took any measures beyond mere lip service to make good on such utopian nationalist visions as have been touted by YES campaign, would soon find himself being depicted as a kind of Putin figure. The difference being Putin's Russia is a real heavy weight not to be taken lightly (or so I would have thought up up until the West's mind boggling and frightening meddling in Ukraine), whereas any kind of upstart Scotland would be nothing but a pip-squeek, screaming out 'squash me, squash me!'

What we got was what the Status Quo wanted and what the civil service has been planning on for years. Devo Max for Scotland in addition to increased federalisation of the whole of the UK. Scotland will get it's psuedo independence (i.e. as a quasi-autonomous EU state) just as soon as it makes sense for the existing powerful interest groups to allow it to happen, and/or not have anything to gain by standing in its way.
 

There's always going to be serious opposition when true democracy gives power to the millions rather than the millionaires.

You can be like me during the last few decades and believe we've lost democracy to big business as all political parties have gravitated to the middle of the road with their support so there is no political spectrum.

Or.

You can be like me now that believes my vote will count in the next few elections as a new political playing field is formed. As New Labour (tory impersonator) shrivels and dies, and torydems and UKIP maintain their mammoth support in Scotland ,  a void is created and we either get a recycled Old Labour or a new working class unity party that can then recreate a true left/right continuum.

Then our vote will count as it should be another resounding GIRFUY to Westmonster and the democratic deficit will be exposed again.

When the democratic deficit is removed we will then receive the power to take the power and then the measures will be taken to address the fundamental problems we both recognise.

Don't think Putin's a very good comparison right now and would hope for a more Castroesque first minister.

Can't believe you've fallen for the supposed belated Devo Max when, in reality, it's not even Devo Diluted!

And I'm not willing to wait for our future to be granted by existing powerful interest groups when they realise they've squeezed us dry.


 

TEK wrote:

Remember what happened in Norway when the banks went under and lost people thousands though Mat.

The government never bailed them out,they sent the bankers to jail.

I honestly feel an Indy Scotland would have been more aligned to this way of thinking and social justice than the Westminster way.I think we could have been a peaceful country free of endless engagements in global 'Wars'.

I think we still can be.

But i am still very very depressed at the lack of foresight by the majority of my countrymen+women.

As the old saying goes 'it's not the despair that get's to you,i can handle the despair.It's the hope i can't stand'.

If by Norway you mean Iceland, then yeah. What transpired there was quite remarkable,

Worth noting however, was the the politicians in Iceland were all by and large ready to sing from the globalist hymn sheet, pass on the banker debts to the Icelandic tax payer, bail out all the Icesave creditors who had invested money their due to the usurous rates of interest they were being paid (or promised to be paid) for doing fuck all, swallow IMFimposed austerity measures, etc etc.

What happened however, was the mass of the Icelandic population rose up and told the politicians that they weren't having any of it. In stark contrast to the response of governments to popular protest movements the world over, the Icelandic anti-bail out protest movement their resulted in a complete U-turn from the Icelandic government on how they were going to treat the private banker debt, and did indeed result in bankers being thrown in jail for their fraudulent activities and of course a refusal of the Icelandic government to accept responsibility for large swathes of the banker debt which was owed to foreign investors. Iceland remains to this day the only country to have jailed any bankers in relation to the 2008 Financial Crisis. In contrast to going down the shitter like the IMF warned it would as a result of it's irreponsible behaviour. It is well noted that Iceland has made the best recovery of all the nations which were most majoorly hit by the crisis.

What makes Iceland different however is

a) Population is tiny. GDP is tiny.
b) They have no strategic resources (oil) nor indeed much of anything else that anyone wants, except for vast potental for renewable energy. Iceland isn't a major concern in any multinational organisations books.
c) It is said that community ties are much stronger in Iceland than in the rest of the Western world. Strong social cohesion is of vital importance when it comes to the voice of the people being heard.
d) Iceland has no military, a very small police force and no crime. I would suspect that these conditions would be conducive to Iceland not having a particularly well developed national 'intelligence' culture and the invariably dubious relations that such organisations tend to develop with powerful interest groups operating within and outwith the nations borders.

But granted, it really was quite remarkable how the Icelandic people responded to the financial crisis and indeed how the Icelandic political system responded to the will of it's people. Almost like democracy doing what it says on the tin, instead of the lip service and singin from the Status Quo's hymn sheet that we are more accustomed to from all the major parties and I include the SNP with that who are now screeching about the 'threat' of a tory/ukip coalition taking Scotland out the EU.....as though the EU was the very air that we breathed.
 

Last edited by MatTheCat (29/9/2014 5:22 am)

arabugsy wrote:

So, who's still up for reducing the democratic deficit?

Don't want it reduced. 

I want Westminster to do their worst. FWIW they wont try to put any legislation through until after the General Election and it wont get through. 

What will happen though is the Barnett Formula will be cut and the next Scottish Governement (SNP in all likelihood) will either have to cut public services or raise taxes. 

We are away to be shafted. 

Good times
 

Joanne Lamont jacks it in as she feels betrayed by her imperialist leaders in Westminster, is anyone surprised in the slightest on this board?