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Peeped on Mad and found this by Arab Wasp ....... Thoughts ??
Thompson family Investment in DUFC some facts to dispel one or two myths
Having spent a little time today reading the club accounts from 2002 to 2015 (most recently available) it would seem that the Thompson family have pumped the following money toward DUFC, although please note the info has been pieced together from documents that do contain some disappointing errors and typos but none I can see that are hugely material to the overall picture.
Purchase of shares from primarily Jim Mclean and family - Not sure how much this was (not publicly available) but was it not speculated at c£2M.
Interestingly following the acquisition the shares subsequently purchased have been consistently valued by Directors (The Thompson family in essence) at £33 per share. At this value the initial shares acquired would have cost them only £215K so maybe the speculation was wrong or perhaps the difference is the amount considered to be written off by the family in the directors loans written off myth mentioned below).
In today's terms (after the various additional share placings and funds paid in) at that price per share (98,180 at £33) this would make the club worth £3.24M (and the combines Thompson stake £2.78M) in theory, although somebody would have to want to pay that sum of course .
Completely and entirely co-incidentally that value is not a million miles away from the most recent balance sheet value £3.34M albeit I suspect a long way more than the 2016 equivalent or worse next years after a season in the championship. I would hazard a guess at losses this year of approaching £2M or more so balance sheet value of c£1.34M and after a year in the championship significantly less than Nil again.
For the record the balance sheet value of the company/club or book worth was £3.4M in 2001; £1M in 2002 and by 2005 after two and a bit years of ET was negative £(4M) (this was the low point to date).
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From the paperwork trail it would seem that the Thompsons have acquired subsequently (seemingly under rights issues i.e. by putting value into the club) some 77,909 shares or thereby at £33 per share which means £2.57M has been put into DUFC by the Thompson family by my reckoning in addition to the sum given to JYM and family so possibly c£4.5M combined.
Its also worth noting that other parties appear to have invested c£240K in that same period of time which will include Arab Trust who if my calculations and detective work is correct will I deduce have purchased c£106K of shares.
At various points in time the Thompson family have ALSO provided loans to the club amounting to at a peak under ET c£600K falling to £135K shortly after his sad demise and again under Cath and Stephen a peak of £651K which it appears is now NIL.
I can find absolutely no trace of any loans being written off or waived in the accounts so that particular rumour seems to be a myth. Equally however there is no trace of funds being syphoned off by the Thompson family with one exception in 2015 where costs were incurred on behalf of Stephen Thompson of £39,451 which he has now repaid (I would assume this is potentially the Aussie expenses being paid back).
Directors remuneration from 2002 onwards is as follows
2002 (Pre ET) £22587
2003 £96995
2004 £130298
2005 £82277
2006 £90915
2007 £54363
2008 £53723
ET passes away 15/10/08 (Average £84K)
2009 £113545
2010 £107078
2011 £141343
2012 £157064
2013 £38465
2014 £164102
2015 £110792 (Average from 2009 £119K)
Total £1,340,960 (this may not be solely payable to Thompson members of directors however) and is in return for directors services provided, I make no comment on the value for money of these sums.
I am not making a claim here in support of or in denigration of the last 14 or so years of ownership by the family simply trying to put some facts (hopefully all relatively accurate) on the table for people to cogitate as they wish.
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A detailed piece of work, with AW's only difficulty being having to use figures not available other than from the media, which simply makes numbers (and many other things) up, to suit their story and sometimes their purposes.
For example, the price to the Thompson family of buying Jim McLean's shares, and others, is not public knowledge.
However, his detail, if close to accurate, would indicate the chairman hasn't been ripping cash out of United. He's simply made some poor decisions, which is bad enough.
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PatReilly wrote:
A detailed piece of work, with AW's only difficulty being having to use figures not available other than from the media, which simply makes numbers (and many other things) up, to suit their story and sometimes their purposes.
For example, the price to the Thompson family of buying Jim McLean's shares, and others, is not public knowledge.
However, his detail, if close to accurate, would indicate the chairman hasn't been ripping cash out of United. He's simply made some poor decisions, which is bad enough.
Interesting piece - read it the other day. I'm sure there were some horrendous clauses in the deals - wasn't nadir due a massive percentage of his transfer fee???
That will quickly cut your profit.
No defence for ST but maybe makes him look slightly better than the image that was being painted of him not so long ago?
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Good piece of investigative work from Arab Wasp.
If his findings are correct (and i have no doubts they are very close to being).Then it would indicate that the mooted figure Thompson and his Sister wants for their shares is pretty much fair (heard he wanted ball park figure of 2 mill for his and she about 1 mill for hers).Albeit all shares have been inherited and not purchased out of his own pocket (is that accurate?).
Long and the short of it is no-one will pay what they want for those shares and the only resolution i can see is what i suggested previously and they hand over their shares for a token amount and some sort of remuneration is drawn up for both i'e' (cut of any future tranfer fees over a period of time).That is of course assuming there is even anyone still out there who wants to take over the running of the club.
There is no Jack Walker out there for Dundee United it would seem.
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Read it at the weekend. Very good and informative piece of work. Just shows you what's available nous wise within us mere supporters! Selling SA (especially if everyone close was saying don't do it) BAD FUTBA DECISION. Keeping and backing Jackie BAD BUSINESS & FUTBA DECISION. Appointing and backing Mixu BAD FUTBA DECISION (sadly) that impacted on the business, as let's face it, we should have got to at least 10th.
Anyway, the milk has been spilt and the horse has bolted.
Let's hope we can galvanise under Raymondo and start the bounce on the long and difficult road back?!
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Great bit of research by Arab wasp, I don't know if he comes on here but if he does hats aff tae ye, one of the stand outs fir me is the debunking of Thompson stealing money or syphoning into his own pockets, funny enough can't see any of the boys who were touting that about, replying on mad?
Thompson has got a hell of a lot wrong, but dressing up conjecture,rumour and bile as FACT and shouting the loudest really doesn't make it right.
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My biggest gripe has always been about the money the club are overspending on. Not what the family take out. Fact is we are spending more than we bring in and when last seasons accounts come out next year that overspending will be even more with larger operating losses.
Club has to bring down its spending drastically. I'm sure everyone knows that. We don't have enough money. That's why in the accounts it said we need investment.
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blackandtangerine wrote:
My biggest gripe has always been about the money the club are overspending on. Not what the family take out. Fact is we are spending more than we bring in and when last seasons accounts come out next year that overspending will be even more with larger operating losses.
Club has to bring down its spending drastically. I'm sure everyone knows that. We don't have enough money. That's why in the accounts it said we need investment.
I'd agree that is a huge concern, b&t. Perhaps the days of inflated salaries and large player pools at Tannadice are going, and spending will come down. However, we're still stuck with high earners who may just sit and accept a wage until their contract runs down. ST showed too much faith in his management choices.
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blackandtangerine wrote:
My biggest gripe has always been about the money the club are overspending on. Not what the family take out. Fact is we are spending more than we bring in and when last seasons accounts come out next year that overspending will be even more with larger operating losses.
Club has to bring down its spending drastically. I'm sure everyone knows that. We don't have enough money. That's why in the accounts it said we need investment.
With proper scouting of the lower leagues in Scotland, England and beyond this shouldn't be a problem. Clubs like ICT and Motherwell have managed to get decent players in on much lower wages than we have been paying. This is what we will have to start doing now. This was ST's biggest downfall; allowing that lazy bastard Jackie to get away with doing next to no scouting, then bringing shite players in on agents recommendations at the last minute on astronomical wages because we were desperate. He got away with this with Ciftci but was stung with pretty much everyone else he signed.