Are you actually going to say who told u this or is it one of these cloak n dagger posts where u know but us mere fans aren't allowed to know?

blackandtangerine wrote:

scarpia wrote:

Admin is not going to happen IMO, nor would it be a good idea - as The Shed has said above you need a good reason to go into admin and currently there are no credible reports, backed up by any facts or figures, suggesting that we are unable to meet our financial obligations.

Let's pause for a minute and look at what might happen though as its been suggested that we might as well do it this season as the points penalty would be meaningless as we might get relegated anyway.

The board were projecting net debt to be £1.4m at calender year end 2015, let's assume this is unchanged.

As a cynic I'd imagine the related party loans (ie the Thompsons) have been cleared - that would mean £1.4m owed to the investors who took over the bank debt.

We might be able to get shot of some players (who would then become creditors) but only some as we'd need to keep a team on the park to fulfilling our fixtures.

So the players (pissed off players) plus fan investors (also pissed off I'd think) would be the major creditors - doubt getting a CVA agreed would be much fun and would require a pence in the pound settlement acceptable to these creditors.

It would doubtless end up with us renting Tannadice from someone and probably having to pay off a percentage of any future profits from player sales to the creditors.

Given that we (along with most clubs) struggle to break even in the top flight without exceptional income and that we'd be a division down as well does anyone seriously see this as a credible option?

We don't own Tannadice.  A loan note holder has the deeds. 

As HH and I have said we've been told that unless we get money in soon be it a sale or a loan then we won't have cash to pay April's wages. We're not saying this to be malicious we're only reporting what's been said. Bowers can confirm he's heard it too.
I honestly hope it isn't the case.

Last thing I'm going to say on the matter. 
 

 
Sorry, a loan holder does not "own the deeds"

There is a security (a negative pledge) over Tannadice preventing the sale of the ground (a much lighter security than that previously held by the bank).

The MR01 form is freely available to download from the companies house website.

We still own the ground.

scarpia wrote:

blackandtangerine wrote:

scarpia wrote:

Admin is not going to happen IMO, nor would it be a good idea - as The Shed has said above you need a good reason to go into admin and currently there are no credible reports, backed up by any facts or figures, suggesting that we are unable to meet our financial obligations.

Let's pause for a minute and look at what might happen though as its been suggested that we might as well do it this season as the points penalty would be meaningless as we might get relegated anyway.

The board were projecting net debt to be £1.4m at calender year end 2015, let's assume this is unchanged.

As a cynic I'd imagine the related party loans (ie the Thompsons) have been cleared - that would mean £1.4m owed to the investors who took over the bank debt.

We might be able to get shot of some players (who would then become creditors) but only some as we'd need to keep a team on the park to fulfilling our fixtures.

So the players (pissed off players) plus fan investors (also pissed off I'd think) would be the major creditors - doubt getting a CVA agreed would be much fun and would require a pence in the pound settlement acceptable to these creditors.

It would doubtless end up with us renting Tannadice from someone and probably having to pay off a percentage of any future profits from player sales to the creditors.

Given that we (along with most clubs) struggle to break even in the top flight without exceptional income and that we'd be a division down as well does anyone seriously see this as a credible option?

We don't own Tannadice.  A loan note holder has the deeds. 

As HH and I have said we've been told that unless we get money in soon be it a sale or a loan then we won't have cash to pay April's wages. We're not saying this to be malicious we're only reporting what's been said. Bowers can confirm he's heard it too.
I honestly hope it isn't the case.

Last thing I'm going to say on the matter. 
 

 
Sorry, a loan holder does not "own the deeds"

There is a security (a negative pledge) over Tannadice preventing the sale of the ground (a much lighter security than that previously held by the bank).

The MR01 form is freely available to download from the companies house website.

We still own the ground.

So if the club were to for some reason default on paying the loan back to the loan note holder can he then own Tannadice? 
 

scarpia wrote:

blackandtangerine wrote:

scarpia wrote:

 
Sorry, a loan holder does not "own the deeds"

There is a security (a negative pledge) over Tannadice preventing the sale of the ground (a much lighter security than that previously held by the bank).

The MR01 form is freely available to download from the companies house website.

We still own the ground.

So if the club were to for some reason default on paying the loan back to the loan note holder can he then own Tannadice? 
 

 
No, it simply prevents the sale or further securitization of the ground - it's very light touch as securities go.

Having said this it's maybe worth double checking - I think I'm right on the above but wouldn't preclude the charge owner seeking ownership in the event of default.
Would welcome someone else's take on the charge if they'd care to have a look

Cheers for that.
 

TheShed wrote:

Scarpia,  I'm no expert, there's a lot of big words on that form for me, but IMO if the club don't pay the creditor the ground becomes his.  There's also a part which specifically states that if we went into admin then the security still stands.

I may be totally wrong and would be happy to be so.

 
Lot of big words for me too

If it was a standard security or a floating charge I'd be clearer on where we are at but I've googled 'negative pledge' and I'm not much wiser.

Bottom line (for now until someone can clarify) I guess is that;

1) no issues if we pay on time.

2) loan ultimately to fan investors so would expect some flexibility in the event of any problems arising.

We'll get a much better idea when the accounts to June 2015 are published as to the remaining debt figure.

Debt wise we are in a better place than we were a few years ago - we shall see in due course what effect relegation might have (barring any miracles).

Debt wise we're in a better place as long as the friendly investors are as friendly as we think and remain that way. ST needs to ensure they're still on side with him.

The problem could come when we need more money, that could be when it would have been better staying with the bank.

All ifs, buts and maybes at the minute, clarity will come in time I suppose.  Then we can get back to discussing football related problems.

Then w

A good Scottish Cup run could solve a lot of our financial problems.

Think when we got to the Final and won it in 2010 i remember reading the whole Cup run upto and including the Final made us circa 1 million pounds.

Though if we were to get by Thistle we'd need the draw to be kind to us.

Arab_plumber wrote:

Tek wrote:

A good Scottish Cup run could solve a lot of our financial problems.

Think when we got to the Final and won it in 2010 i remember reading the whole Cup run upto and including the Final made us circa 1 million pounds.

Though if we were to get by Thistle we'd need the draw to be kind to us.

Or get a bye
 

Ach ye never know mate.

Gordon Chisolm got us to a Cup Final don't forget.Stranger things have happened.
 

scarpia wrote:

Tek wrote:

Arab_plumber wrote:

Or get a bye
 

Ach ye never know mate.

Gordon Chisolm got us to a Cup Final don't forget.Stranger things have happened.
 

 
Also worth bearing in mind that a possible Andy Robertson windfall has been mooted.......I know, we've been there before.....

 
Noel Hunt money been paid yet?

Somebody had to say it.

Seriously a cup run would help in so many ways.

Billy_Hainey wrote:

Did a wee bit Guesstimating. If anyone thinks any of the figures are sh1te, holler.

This Season 2015/16 in the Premiership
Average Attendance is 8233 (up to date)
Average Ticket Price per match £20
No. of Home Matches 19
Total Estimated Income £3,128,678

Guesstimate for next Season in the Championship (Dont panic - we're not down yet! )
Guesstimate Average Attendance 6500
Guesstimate Average Ticket Price per Match £20
No. of Home Matches 18
Total Guesstimate Income £2,340,000

Guesstimate Drop for the Season £788,678
Guesstimate Drop per Game £41,509 (this takes into account there is 1 less Home Match ie 18 instead of 19)
 

 
Looks a decent guess to me - there would also be losses in other revenue - hospo/tv/place money etc.

Costs would of course drop e.g. wage bill/police-stewarding for example.

As I've mean said before elsewhere the losses for Hibs/Fun were in the order of £500/600k so a lot looks like depending on how well we control our costs and keeping ST/walk in numbers as high as possible.

Sad to have to contemplate this.....

Also take into account that the next set of accounts will have the benefit of 2. Cup finals ( fermers and tic ) as Scottish cup final monies are not paid out unti 3 or 4 moths  after the actual final pretty sure they get paid out in August where as league cup final monies are paid out very quickly ( 14 days I believe) after actual final

The season ticket must still work out about £18 a game though

Arab_plumber wrote:

The season ticket must still work out about £18 a game though

 
For adults yes, but add in all the kids will take the average down to £12/13 or thereabouts?

Not sure what the exact amount would be.

Positive is that the average price being lower actually reduces the difference season on season.